Freethought & Rationalism Archive

babelfish · 10-31-2002, 06:57 AM

Quote:

babelfish, don't you think you are being a bit harsh in your subject line, blaming Douglas for the presence of evil in the world?
I'm sure it's really the fault of the roof demons.

cheers,
Michael

LOL!

Oh man, I didn't mean to imply that, I was just trying to get Douglas J Bender's attention! Maybe I should change that title.......but I can't think of a better one, so I guess I'll just leave it as is and hope no offense is taken

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: babelfish ]

babelfish · 10-31-2002, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by agapeo:

That's a possibility. However, the question is not addressed from a Biblical standpoint because evidently whereas Satan didn't have a choice in his creation and subsequent tenure in heaven, we do. So our (Christian) entrance into heaven is something we wish to have. Could we change our minds after getting there? Perhaps. I'll have to wait and see.

Did humans have a choice in their creation? Not only did we not ask to be born, we definitely didn't ask to be born with "original sin" or a "sin nature."

Besides, after Satan fell, how come he didn't get a chance to redeem himself? So unfair....but I guess he's there to be held up as an example forevermore to all of us: "don't let this happen to you!"

In other words, don't you dare be proud, or start thinking you are GOD - things atheists of accused of all the time.

Walter_Mitty · 10-31-2002, 08:08 AM

Quote:

That's a possibility. However, the question is not addressed from a Biblical standpoint because evidently whereas Satan didn't have a choice in his creation and subsequent tenure in heaven, we do.

According to the "Bible" none of us--including Satan--had a choice in being created. As for his tenure in heaven, well, he certainly did have a "choice" and he certainly did have "free will." In fact, he obviously chose to use his free will to sin in heaven, thus getting booted out along with other Angels who CHOSE to sin. That is very clear in the Bible. So, is there sin in heaven? Apparently so, unless God changed something up there after Satan sinned. If He did change the game plan up there, he failed to mention it in your holy book.

So with the possiblility of sin and free will in heaven, what promise do Christians have it will be any better than this monotheistic mess down here?

babelfish · 10-31-2002, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bibliophile:


So with the possiblility of sin and free will in heaven, what promise do Christians have it will be any better than this monotheistic mess down here?

Exactly - if I were a Christian I'd want a teeny bit more info about this place I'm supposed to be so fervently working towards gaining entry into.

But I suppose one shouldn't question The Almighty. He tells us things strictly on a "need to know" basis, apparently. (Sigh)

Perchance · 10-31-2002, 10:31 AM

Maybe Satan, having had direct experience of God, couldn't be fooled by the "promises" that the supposed Almighty uses to control humanity?

Or not. That really drove my Milton professor crazy when I suggested it, though. He did not want us to see Satan as the hero of Paradize Lost.

-Perchance.

Walter_Mitty · 10-31-2002, 11:42 AM

Though I have great "faith" that Mr. Bender is crafting his reply, I thought I'd bump this topic back to the top of the pack just in case he missed it.

GunnerJ · 10-31-2002, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Though I have great "faith" that Mr. Bender is crafting his reply, I thought I'd bump this topic back to the top of the pack just in case he missed it.

Come on. Have a heart. Don't you know Bender is busy handing out Chick Tracts to all the trick-or-treaters who come around?

HaysooChreesto! · 10-31-2002, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by babelfish:
Douglas, a few days ago, <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=44&t=001716&p=8" target="_blank">in this thread on the MD forum</a> you said:

quote:

God gave Adam and Eve "dominion" over the world, and the world (the Earth and all "within" it) became subject to their authority.

Well, everything but that pesky "Tree of Knowledge" thingy.

agapeo · 10-31-2002, 07:42 PM

Hi Babel,

Quote:

Did humans have a choice in their creation?

No, but neither were they originally in heaven. Context man, context.

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Not only did we not ask to be born, we definitely didn't ask to be born with "original sin" or a "sin nature."

And who's fault is that? Are you saying you're unhappy about the fact that your parents decided to have a little fun. In any case, so you inherited what your parents had to give you. Nobody is suggesting you have to keep that inheritance.

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Besides, after Satan fell, how come he didn't get a chance to redeem himself?

Who said he wanted to?

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So unfair....

Yeah, really. Life sucks don't it.

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but I guess he's there to be held up as an example forevermore to all of us: "don't let this happen to you!"

Actually, I never give it much thought.

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In other words, don't you dare be proud, or start thinking you are GOD

Who said he thought he was God. I think I read somewhere that he wanted to be just likeGod. I guess he couldn't cut the mustard or else we'd be worshipping him instead.

Quote:

things atheists of accused of all the time.

I don't recall accusing you of such. But if you ever start thinking you're God, I can suggest some good hospitals that cater to this type of malady.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: agapeo ]

agapeo · 10-31-2002, 08:01 PM

Quote:

According to the "Bible" none of us--including Satan--had a choice in being created.

Whoa! Where does it say we were created in the Bible? The only thing that God created when it comes to us is spirit within us. But that occurred after He formed the body and gave that body life. At least that's what I read.

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As for his tenure in heaven, well, he certainly did have a "choice" and he certainly did have "free will."

I don't follow you.

What was the choice he had in respect to heaven?

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In fact, he obviously chose to use his free will to sin in heaven, thus getting booted out along with other Angels who CHOSE to sin. That is very clear in the Bible.

Yeah. And your point is?

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So, is there sin in heaven? Apparently so, unless God changed something up there after Satan sinned.

Now just where did you get this notion?

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If He did change the game plan up there, he failed to mention it in your holy book.

Well, so what. There's probably a lot of things not mentioned in the Bible. Is there a point to this?

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So with the possiblility of sin and free will in heaven, what promise do Christians have it will be any better than this monotheistic mess down here?

Hmm . . . the promise of God.

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10-31-2002, 10:31 AM	#15
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	Maybe Satan, having had direct experience of God, couldn't be fooled by the "promises" that the supposed Almighty uses to control humanity? Or not. That really drove my Milton professor crazy when I suggested it, though. He did not want us to see Satan as the hero of Paradize Lost. -Perchance.

10-31-2002, 11:42 AM	#16
Walter_Mitty Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: . Posts: 467	Though I have great "faith" that Mr. Bender is crafting his reply, I thought I'd bump this topic back to the top of the pack just in case he missed it.

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