Freethought & Rationalism Archive

free12thinker · 04-17-2002, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:


You mean you can't argue with success? That's true but maybe we are now just in the lul before the storm.

As for myself I would never blame females for want of liberation but would blame males for the inadequate leadership they provide to cause this want for liberation. An argument can be made that our sexuality is an illusion that is created in the controversy between the sexes. The direction of our American society is geared towards the removal of this controversy and if indeed our sexuality is an illusion the psychological neutering of America is not really what we should aim for because our ability to procreate will be the price we pay for this.

In the end the fact remains (my own postulate) that by the same extent females become liberated will their effeminate qualities decrease to the point where in the end the masculine female fail to ovulate. Examples of this are many but female body builders and fertility clinics come to mind here. Of course, the sperm count of males goes down long before this if females dance to the songs of males.

As wise atheist we should never dismiss fair warnings the good old bible gives us just for the sake of protest because there might just be some words of wisdom in it.

So you believe that women have only become more "masculine" because males have not been able to keep up their end of the bargain? Okay. When do you think this trend began? Cause as history tells us, women have been uncomfortable with the "homemaker" roles for thousands of years.

And if women are naturally true to the feministic qualities that we stereotype them with, than where do they get the drive to go "masculine" in the first place? Let's say that Bob and Mary are married and Bob is losing his leadership qualities. If Mary is naturally feminine, where does she find it in herself to pull out some masulinity if it naturally doesn't exist? And why. Does she need the leadership for some sort of sanity or security?

The truth is, women have wanted to "show their stuff" for thousands of years, but with religion in control, which put men in control, they were unable to get anything going. Women who went against the establishment were killed or taken care of by their "now embarrassed" husband who were, by law, allowed to do as they wished. During WWII, women began working because we used them in the abscence of their husbands who went off to war. Of course they liked the feeling since it had been in them for so long, but we told them enough is enough as soon as the war was over. Wives wen't into remission and depression as a result, feeling trapped in a suburban home with an empty marriage and no way to use their strengths and ambitions. Pain killers were an understandable answer. But with the 60's came a time for change. People began questioning authority, and questioning the governments stance on civil rights and womens liberation.

And so it goes, here we are today.

Does the bible have some useful information? Depends on how you look at it. The bible does tell us not to kill, hurt, steal or things like that, but those are things that are learned without the bible. Those are subconscious objections that are easy to grasp, whether we read the bible or not. On the other hand, the bible has taught us to discriminate and be weak/narrow-minded.

southernhybrid · 04-17-2002, 04:52 AM

The last time I took a look at who runs our major corporations, and government, it was still dominated by white males. We women still make less money than our male counterparts, and women remain the primary victims in doestic violence crimes. If we were running everything, things would be much different.

Godless Dave · 04-17-2002, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by southernhybrid:
If we were running everything, things would
be much different.

Different, but not necessarily better! Evil and greed are equal opportunity employers.

free12thinker, to answer your question, no, a society does not have to be governed by men to be successful.

Captain Pedantic · 04-17-2002, 07:33 AM

As I do keep saying, society has been going to the dogs since records began. Read records from thousands of years ago, you'll soon see.

free12thinker · 04-17-2002, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by southernhybrid:
The last time I took a look at who runs our major corporations, and government, it was still dominated by white males. We women still make less money than our male counterparts, and women remain the primary victims in doestic violence crimes. If we were running everything, things would be much different.

We're on the same side here. I wasn't stating that women were equal with men, nor do I think it's fair that they are not. But strides have been made, and women do have the ambition, smarts and strengths that our Christian/COnservative counterparts refuse to see. That's all I was saying, if you read my entire post. I'm on your side.

04-17-2002, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Pedantic:
As I do keep saying, society has been going to the dogs since records began. Read records from thousands of years ago, you'll soon see.

That's a good point and very true, but THIS TIME IT IS FOR REAL, dammit! <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

04-17-2002, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by southernhybrid:
The last time I took a look at who runs our major corporations, and government, it was still dominated by white males. We women still make less money than our male counterparts, and women remain the primary victims in doestic violence crimes. If we were running everything, things would be much different.

Just be happy about this because that is where corruption runs rampant and you don't want to be part of that. If money really was the end of your happiness you should save it all so you can feel sorry for it too, which I suggest would not be wise.

Domestic violence only exists because there is something wrong and I never want to become part of that argument. My wife actually crowned me king to make herself queen -- which I thought was rather clever on her part.

04-17-2002, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by free12thinker:


So you believe that women have only become more "masculine" because males have not been able to keep up their end of the bargain? Okay. When do you think this trend began? Cause as history tells us, women have been uncomfortable with the "homemaker" roles for thousands of years. 

I am not convinced that females always have been uncomfortable being just homemakers but will admid that some form of female censorship exist the world over. 

And if women are naturally true to the feministic qualities that we stereotype them with, than where do they get the drive to go "masculine" in the first place? Let's say that Bob and Mary are married and Bob is losing his leadership qualities. If Mary is naturally feminine, where does she find it in herself to pull out some masulinity if it naturally doesn't exist? And why. Does she need the leadership for some sort of sanity or security? 

Potentially females can be equal to males and better because they are more motivated and dedicated. Of course they can be smarter but that would depend on the individuals of both sexes. I am just stating that this liberation will be at a cost to be paid for by the next generation (sins of the forefathers).

The truth is, women have wanted to "show their stuff" for thousands of years, but with religion in control, which put men in control, they were unable to get anything going.
snip
Pain killers were an understandable answer. But with the 60's came a time for change. People began questioning authority, and questioning the governments stance on civil rights and womens liberation. 

I like it when they "show their stuff" and work is good for all people. It's healthy and keeps everybody happy. In the 60's the modern "gender society" was introduced and we now have the first generation express their sexual inclinations and the increase of violence, child abuse, female births, infertility etc. Have you noticed how many females will leave their children in search for a new lover? This was unheard of before. 

And so it goes, here we are today.

Does the bible have some useful information? Depends on how you look at it. The bible does tell us not to kill, hurt, steal or things like that, but those are things that are learned without the bible. Those are subconscious objections that are easy to grasp, whether we read the bible or not. On the other hand, the bible has taught us to discriminate and be weak/narrow-minded.

We're importing people because we have a negative population growth and, just like in Isreal now, we will soon be a minority in our own land.

Note that I am an immigrant, so nothing really is my call to make. I just present the observation I make.

[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

04-17-2002, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by free12thinker:


We're on the same side here. I wasn't stating that women were equal with men, nor do I think it's fair that they are not. But strides have been made, and women do have the ambition, smarts and strengths that our Christian/COnservative counterparts refuse to see. That's all I was saying, if you read my entire post. I'm on your side.

To be sure, I would like to distance myself from you idea of Christian domination. I think females have qualities of their own that males do not have and these are very much needed in the family and should be encouraged to develop. To go out and make a living is dumb thing to do and should be degrading for females because their qualities are much more important than that. This does not mean that I am against females working but wonder if it really pays for them to do this.

free12thinker · 04-17-2002, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:


To be sure, I would like to distance myself from you idea of Christian domination. I think females have qualities of their own that males do not have and these are very much needed in the family and should be encouraged to develop. To go out and make a living is dumb thing to do and should be degrading for females because their qualities are much more important than that. This does not mean that I am against females working but wonder if it really pays for them to do this.

To go out and make a living is a dumb thing to do? Okay. Does this statement even warrant a reply? Probably not, but here goes anyway. Why do you question whether something that a female does, because she wants to, is worth it? Or that it degrades them? What possible reason can you come up with to back up such a statement. Are you questioning peoples hearts and drive? Or do you claim, much like the Christians you separate yourself from, that women really should stick to what they "do best".

It's obvious that women are nurturers, but that's a physical distinction. Women are nurturers because they are the only sex able to reproduce and a closeness with the baby is inevitable. But aside from nurturing, what other roles would you suggest women stick to? Housewife? And why? Before I go any further, I will wait for a reply from you.

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04-17-2002, 04:52 AM	#12
southernhybrid Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: heavenly Georgia Posts: 3,862	The last time I took a look at who runs our major corporations, and government, it was still dominated by white males. We women still make less money than our male counterparts, and women remain the primary victims in doestic violence crimes. If we were running everything, things would be much different.

04-17-2002, 07:33 AM	#14
Captain Pedantic Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: UK. Posts: 588	As I do keep saying, society has been going to the dogs since records began. Read records from thousands of years ago, you'll soon see.

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