Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Queen of Swords · 03-07-2003, 09:06 PM

Reposting this for Old Man's benefit :

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I'm just curious - would you prefer a man having consensual sex with you or raping you? Since it's reasonable that there is no such distinction, should you mind being raped (as long as the man pays your father for the privilege)?

Or perhaps this only applies to women?

Old Man · 03-08-2003, 07:49 AM

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Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
HA!!!

Um... "Ha" what???

You're going to have to a bit more specific than that Old Man. What does turning one's children out to be abused have to do with abortion?

Well, its like this. A woman says: "I might die", or "It might cost me $1000 to have this baby", or "I might lose my job". So I won't take the risk and abort.

Similar to George Bush & Tony Blair om iraq. "The Iraqi's might use their weapons". Better to obliterate Bagdad instead.

Just one problem with Lot. He wasn't ever commended by God for his offer. So what's the point of your post anyway?

If the rapists had broken into the house and discovered his daughters along with the guests, the daughters would have been carried of and raped anyway, so I guess Job figured that it was better to try and save his guests if at all possible.

Anyway, you seem to be mightly reluctant to criticize the homosexual perverts who were responsible for all this. Why is that?

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As another minor aside, it boggles my mind that Christians constantly talk about God as this "loving Father" figure. Hell, if Yahweh approved of Lot's actions (giving his daughters up to a mob of rapists)... I sure wouldn't *want* to be one of "God's children". Especially as a female!!!

Thank DOG it's a good thing that bloodthirsty perverted tyrant is merely a figment of your imagination.

George Bush is not a figment of my imagination. And nor are the 85% of the population of the USA who support him.

Old Man · 03-08-2003, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
Reposting this for Old Man's benefit :

would you prefer a man having consensual sex with you or raping you? Since it's reasonable that there is no such distinction, should you mind being raped (as long as the man pays your father for the privilege)?

Have you stopped beating your husband? What relevance does that question have. The bible never claims that rape is desirable or that there isn't a distinction.

Anyway, marriage is enforced rape to the feminist. The feminist sees the optimal social position of women, as women strutting around the place saying to any man she fancies:

"I'll have you tonight and your friend tomorrow - because that's what I consent to".

Ultimately it boils down to the issue of do you let society be ruled by a women's libido, or something else.

I guess God decided that the measure of a women's libido was not the appopriate standard setter for social harmony.

christ-on-a-stick · 03-08-2003, 09:54 AM

Old Man,

Wow, you're pretty nimble for a self-professed "old" guy - all that dancing around my actual points must have really tired you out.

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Well, its like this. A woman says: "I might die", or "It might cost me $1000 to have this baby", or "I might lose my job". So I won't take the risk and abort.

Incoherent much? What the heckola???

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Just one problem with Lot. He wasn't ever commended by God for his offer. So what's the point of your post anyway?

That's pretty pathetic. You're actually saying that because God didn't say "way to go, Lot" - just called him righteous - that means something??? Grasping at straws, aren't you???

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If the rapists had broken into the house and discovered his daughters along with the guests, the daughters would have been carried of and raped anyway, so I guess Job figured that it was better to try and save his guests if at all possible.

??? If they were "homosexual perverts" as you say, and they were after the guests, why would they take the daughters??? Anyway again this is BESIDE THE POINT.... are you really saying that it was a righteous act for Lot to be more concerned with saving his guests than his own children???

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Anyway, you seem to be mightly reluctant to criticize the homosexual perverts who were responsible for all this. Why is that?

Quit yer dancing, Old Man. First of all, what's this "homosexual perverts" thing all about? They were rapists . If they were homosexual, I guess that makes them homosexual rapists. Do you need me to to make an explicit condemnation of rapists? Ok, I find rapists - homo or hetero-sexual - disgusting, depraved and in need of lock-up. *I* would never GIVE my children to a mob of rapists and say "do what you want". I'd fight them to the death first.

Dr Rick · 03-08-2003, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Old Man
If the rapists had broken into the house and discovered his daughters along with the guests, the daughters would have been carried of and raped anyway, so I guess Job figured that it was better to try and save his guests if at all possible.

Lot's guests were angels; What kind of danger were they in? Can humans harm angels? Are angels potential rape victims? How does one rape or even have consensual sex with an angel?

Rick

Queen of Swords · 03-08-2003, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by Old Man
Have you stopped beating your husband? What relevance does that question have. The bible never claims that rape is desirable or that there isn't a distinction.

You previously said that the bible chooses to allow no such distinction. If there is a distinction, why does the bible not allow it? And if there is no distinction, then you should have the same objections to consensual sex as you do to rape - or no objections to either.

In any case, you have evaded the question. Probably because you couldn't answer it.

As for the bible not claiming that rape is desirable, similarly, the bible doesn't exactly come out and say that murder is desirable, but it provides many cases of god-sanctioned genocide, child killing, torture and butchery of one's vanquished enemies. The same example holds for rape.

Anyway, marriage is enforced rape to the feminist.

Is it really? I had no idea you spoke for all feminists, nor that all feminists agreed on this view of marriage. When did you become Grand Wizard of NOW?

The feminist sees the optimal social position of women, as women strutting around the place saying to any man she fancies:

"I'll have you tonight and your friend tomorrow - because that's what I consent to".

Impressive. You must explain how you gained such insight into the minds of feminists everywhere. Perhaps you could also define "feminism" - it seems to revolve around sex for you, but I could be wrong.

Ultimately it boils down to the issue of do you let society be ruled by a women's libido, or something else.

"Something else" being a man's libido, or yours in particular?

I guess God decided that the measure of a women's libido was not the appopriate standard setter for social harmony.

I guess God appointed you to speak for him sometime after all the feminists did.

Edited to add : I don't quite see the relevance of the comments regarding feminism and women's sex drives to the topic we were discussing, which is biblical rape. Could you point out how exactly your opinion of "women's libido" relates to the point of why the bible allows no distinction between rape and consensual sex?

Mad Kally · 03-08-2003, 01:01 PM

Quote:

posted by old man:
George Bush is not a figment of my imagination. And nor are the 85% of the population of the USA who support him.

Where did you pull that number out of? (No don't answer) That may have been true during Afghanistan. Read the news once in awhile. sheesshhh

Treacle Worshipper · 03-08-2003, 01:19 PM

I've read this thread through twice 'cos I simply couldn't believe some of the things Old Man said.

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I'd be interested to see a survey of just what "consent by a woman" was actually based on today. Almost certainly related to a combination of things, including the male's ability to seduce the female, the amount of money he has (big factor), his looks, his age, whether he has appeared on TV, the car he drives (may be), and the female's libido (certainly) and general moral proclivity.

Ha! Hahaha! Obviously all women decide to sleep with guys based on the size of their bank account and the make of their car. I particularly like "whether he has appeared on tv". That's a real big influencing factor with me, mm-hmm.

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Modern society makes a big distinction between a man seducing a woman and sleeping with her (OK), and a man raping her (not OK). The bible chooses to allow no such distinction. So what. I think that's a reasonable approach.

So as far as your concerned seduction is the same as rape? Does it not occur to you that most women are aware when they are being seduced and can respond to that seduction or not as they choose? That is far different from being held down and forced into sex against your will.

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It can be argued that modern society favours "seducers", and indeed, when you see many men who claim to have slept with hundreds of women but whom are "above the law", it is clear there is something wrong.

What is wrong if all the above were consensual acts? Just because not everybody has your one-flesh idea of marriage, it doesn't mean that they're wrong per se.

And after writing this:

Quote:

Modern society makes a big distinction between a man seducing a woman and sleeping with her (OK), and a man raping her (not OK). The bible chooses to allow no such distinction. So what. I think that's a reasonable approach.

You wrote this:

Quote:

The bible never claims that rape is desirable or that there isn't a distinction.

So which is it?
TW

Queen of Swords · 03-08-2003, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by Treacle Worshipper
I particularly like "whether he has appeared on tv". That's a real big influencing factor with me, mm-hmm.

Forget "appeared on tv", my consent is given only if the man has been into outer space.

Invader Tak · 03-08-2003, 01:59 PM

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Anyway, marriage is enforced rape to the feminist.

HA HA HA HA! I haven't heard that one in a while. Isn't that a Dworkin/MacKinnon thing?

Old Man, I'll let you in on a secret, feminism is kinda like Christianity, there's a *whole lot* of different kinds.

Quote:

The feminist sees the optimal social position of women, as women strutting around the place saying to any man she fancies:

"I'll have you tonight and your friend tomorrow - because that's what I consent to".

..and the problem with this is?

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03-08-2003, 12:21 PM	#36
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Old Man Have you stopped beating your husband? What relevance does that question have. The bible never claims that rape is desirable or that there isn't a distinction. You previously said that the bible chooses to allow no such distinction. If there is a distinction, why does the bible not allow it? And if there is no distinction, then you should have the same objections to consensual sex as you do to rape - or no objections to either. In any case, you have evaded the question. Probably because you couldn't answer it. As for the bible not claiming that rape is desirable, similarly, the bible doesn't exactly come out and say that murder is desirable, but it provides many cases of god-sanctioned genocide, child killing, torture and butchery of one's vanquished enemies. The same example holds for rape. Anyway, marriage is enforced rape to the feminist. Is it really? I had no idea you spoke for all feminists, nor that all feminists agreed on this view of marriage. When did you become Grand Wizard of NOW? The feminist sees the optimal social position of women, as women strutting around the place saying to any man she fancies: "I'll have you tonight and your friend tomorrow - because that's what I consent to". Impressive. You must explain how you gained such insight into the minds of feminists everywhere. Perhaps you could also define "feminism" - it seems to revolve around sex for you, but I could be wrong. Ultimately it boils down to the issue of do you let society be ruled by a women's libido, or something else. "Something else" being a man's libido, or yours in particular? I guess God decided that the measure of a women's libido was not the appopriate standard setter for social harmony. I guess God appointed you to speak for him sometime after all the feminists did. Edited to add : I don't quite see the relevance of the comments regarding feminism and women's sex drives to the topic we were discussing, which is biblical rape. Could you point out how exactly your opinion of "women's libido" relates to the point of why the bible allows no distinction between rape and consensual sex?

03-08-2003, 01:49 PM	#39
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Treacle Worshipper I particularly like "whether he has appeared on tv". That's a real big influencing factor with me, mm-hmm. Forget "appeared on tv", my consent is given only if the man has been into outer space.

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