Bobzammel

In one of Paul's letters he states that all that made Abe righteous was his faith, and not any physical covenant or laws. The words are "Abraham had faith, and was reckoned righteous" However, If one looks back at where the passage is found in Genesis, and the original Hebrew, it seems quite clear from the passage that Abraham has faith that God *is* righteous, not that he himself was righteous by believing in God.

Another slip-up for Paul...

Geoff Hudson

Thankyou Bobzammel, you have just told me something I have struggled with previously, and you have made me realise how important it is to have a translation from the Hebrew - which I do not possess. I think there is one on-line.

It seems unlikely that Paul himself would NOT have misquoted in Romans 4.3 and 22, so I put it down to an editor who wants to change the theology of salvation. If Genesis 15.6 as quoted in Rom.4.3 is as you say, the question then is: What was the original scheme of salvation as preached by Paul? I will come back. Thanks again.

Geoff

Geoff Hudson

I may be getting excited in error. The Hebrew bible in English has for Gen.15.6:

"And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness."

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

So its "back to the drawing board".

Geoff

Bobzammel

Yes, but it can still be possible that the "he" referring to is Abraham considering God someone of merit. Remember, this is still early in their relationship. My Tanekh translation--Not translated by Christians nor included with any New Testament-states the following: "And because he put his trust in the Lord, he reckoned it to his merit".
Keep in mind that in many cases the New Testament misqoutes--or badly misunderstands--the Old. While this may not be alarming as other cases-and indeed I might be wrong-it's still something to consider.

Bobzammel

Here's what the OXFORD bible notes say:

6: This verse indicates trhat Abraham considered his objections answered. Though later tradition has generally understood God to be the one who reckoned righteous to Abraham(Romans 4:6, Galatians 3:6), the subject is not specified in in Hebrew. Righteousness is being true to one's social obligations and commitments. It is possible that it is Abraham here who reckons righteousness to the Lord, certifying that he now beliefs the lord will be true to his commitments in 15:1(cf. 15.2-3)

Amos

Yes he was and that is why our God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Christ. Each one of these had a distinct salvation story to tell and no other will do.

Jimmy Higgins

Abram was very faithful to God, actually to the multiple of gods he worshiped in Genesis.

Abram did a couple of extraordinary acts. First, he left his father and all that he knew. This was a very big thing back then, to cut all ties of your family. Even today that is a big deal. Second, the sacrifice of his son. After finally obtaining a son directly from Sarah, God asked him to kill his son, which he was in the steps of doing until God told him not to do it.

However, I wouldn't say that Abraham's faith alone was what made him righteous. In the tale of Sodom, Abraham is able to sway the opinion of God regarding who he will destroy in Sodom, after testing them. At first, God was going to kill everyone. But Abraham tested God by asking if he'd kill just one righteous person. If Abraham was truly faithful, to the T, then he'd never of asked of who God would kill. Abraham was also not too confident in God giving him a child. In fact, he questioned God when God told him that Sarah would conceive a child. Abraham objected saying that Sarah was beyond the ways of woman.

And then you have the differing J and E sources. The J source shows a more rigid and pompous Abraham, while the E source shows a nicer and more cuddly Abraham.

I'd say that Noah would have had more faith than Abraham, merely because in one source of the flood story, he built the ark without even knowing why. Abraham openly questions God on a few occasions. This is an absolute no no for those who have the greatest faith.