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Old 07-09-2003, 09:06 PM   #11
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Originally posted by Rational BAC
Actually most "dumbass" Christians (myself included) do not take the OT seriously at all. Just a fascinating piece of literature.

Only the "very intelligent" Fundies and atheists seem to put great import into the Old Testament.
This is a facetious response, right?
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Old 07-11-2003, 02:05 AM   #12
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Originally posted by Rational BAC
....The 10 Commandments as being essential to Christianity? What a laugher.
(This is similar to Secular Pinoy's quote)

Matthew 5:18-20
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The last part implies that you can only get into heaven through Jesus... but still, you're supposed to practice and teach the commandments.

In Matthew 5 he even makes some of the commandments given to Moses even stricter:
e.g.
Matthew 5:31-32
"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' [Deut. 24:1] But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."

This is expanded here:

Mark 10:2-5,11-12
Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?"
"What did Moses command you?" he replied.
They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."
"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," [God gave the laws to Moses, Moses simply wrote it down] Jesus replied.
He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."


Jesus seems to refer to Moses a lot as far as morality goes and also expands on those commandments. BTW, Jesus's view that people would be committing adultery assumes that committing adultery is wrong... the wrongness of adultery is asserted in the 10 commandments.
BTW, if you were in one of those divorce situations (e.g. considering marrying a divorced woman or considering divorcing an abusive [but non-cheating] husband [if you were a woman]) then read those verses, would you go against what Jesus said and do it? If you did, you would be consciously disobeying Jesus.

Mark 7:8-10,13
"You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
....Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

(If you read the surrounding text it talks about the things the Pharisees were guilty of... they thought that if you don't wash your hands before you eat and maybe also cups, etc, you would be (ceremonally?) "unclean". The rules regarding cleanliness in the Law often mirror tips for good hygiene/health - though there are some flawed rules. e.g. Leviticus 17:15.)
Anyway, Jesus seems to be saying it is important to try and keep Moses's laws - and that human traditions are much less important and even irrelevant (such as washing your hands, or cups, etc).

Matthew 22:36-40
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Note that Jesus doesn't say that the commandments are no longer relevant... he is saying that those 2 meta-commandments are the foundation of the Law.

Luke 10:25-28
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."


Notice Jesus's reply to the initial question - he immediately asks what is written in the law - then he says "you've answered correctly". And note that they *aren't* new concepts - those 2 things were in the Law... see Deuteronomy 6:5 (also Deut 10:12, 11:13, 13:3, 30:6) and Leviticus 19:18.
The way to receive eternal life is a bit different to Mark 10:17-31 (the rich young man) - Jesus first makes sure he's kept the commandments - then he says the man must sell his possessions and give them to the poor, then follow Jesus (become a literal disciple?). But then it implies that thanks to God's grace, the rich can still get into heaven. But Jesus doesn't explicitly say you can deliberately break the commandments a lot and rely on God's grace.

1 Corinthians 7:18-20
"Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him."

Circumcision may be part of the Law, but otherwise the Law (which is part of God's commands) is meant to be obeyed.

Paul also talks about faith and works and that you're supposed to have works as well... and that would involve observing the law to some degree. I can't be bothered finding verses for that at the moment.

There is also the thing about not working on the Sabbath... that is part of the "love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength" meta-commandment. Jesus doesn't say that the Sabbath commandment no longer applies. There are quite a lot of passages about that though... so maybe another time.
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Old 07-11-2003, 02:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rational BAC
Actually most "dumbass" Christians (myself included) do not take the OT seriously at all. Just a fascinating piece of literature.

Only the "very intelligent" Fundies and atheists seem to put great import into the Old Testament.
Well my IQ is only about 135-140... not that impressive. And I think it's possible that a god exists somewhere... e.g. maybe we're in a computer simulation or something... though I strongly lean towards the no-God theory.

By the way, the Old Testament supposedly describes many events where your infinite God dramatically intervened with the world... including many times when he talked to people, such as in all the laws he dictated to Moses. (According to the OT they were dictated to Moses - unless you're saying the OT is full of out-right lies)
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