Seraphim

"The Bible is filled with justification for similar acts.
It's the followers that in modern times mostly reject fundamentalism."

My reply : Bible IS filled with such justification as Al Quran does, but the different is in its followers. While Christians do not take some of the "laws" set on the Bible because they view it as outdated, Muslims attend to follow whatever in their book rigiously. Do you know that women who commited adultery is still stoning and it is practised in countries like Arab and Africa? Can you show me one punishment which you yourself stated in Bible which is been done by Christians for some sort of crime?

"Is modern Islam more violent or extreme then Christianity from 500 to 1600 AD? I don't believe so. I understand that I just made a very generic statement regarding Christianity. And along the way there were many non-violent groups and sects.
Just like many Muslims are not violent and do not take everything in their religious texts as literal."

My reply : Now I definately know you don't know anything about Islam or Muslims. Do you know what is the term for this so-called non-violent group in Islam itself? Mostly likely Murtad (those who left Islam) or Munafik (those who don't follow Islam but pretend in public). Do you know why? Because Islam itself stated that it is duty to ALL Muslims to promote Islam to Kafirs.

There is another possiblity for this so-called "non-violent" group - they are spread Islam by preaching while their brethen are doing it by sword. Both are same in my eyes.

"But the history of Christianity is just as violent. "

My reply : We are not talking about History, we are talking about the current situations. In less than 10 years - Muslims is responsible for :

1. Strife in Kashmir.
2. Strife in Philiphines.
3. Strife in Mid-East countries (which I fed up with).
4. Kidnapping of varies foreigners from Malaysian waters by a Muslim extermist called Abu Sayyaf.
5. Taliban and their oppressed rules over Afghan.
6. Destruction of a 1,000 monuments - the Buddhist statues in Afghan.
7. Sept. 11 Attacks.

All this is less than 10 years. Your turn now - why don't you match something the Christian did which equals to this.

Thor Q. Mada

You want some xian stupidity to match??
How about the vaticans stance against contraception which leads to children being born in abbysimal porverty as well as to the rapid spread of aids. You mention the Philippines. Have you ever been there?? If you have you have certainly seen the people and the large families living and dying on heaps of garbage. Ever been in Rio De Janeiro and walked through the favellas (if you can-better have an armed guard). And how about Ireland?? where xian kills xian?? Just not good enough.
Stupidity , ridgidity, and dogma's kill people. These three are the hallmark if organized religion.

Seraphim

"How about the vaticans stance against contraception which leads to children being born in abbysimal porverty as well as to the rapid spread of aids."

My reply : What does Vatican have to do with chilren been born in poverty? And last time I checked (at least in this forum), someone here said that AIDS spread because of a virus originated from Apes and spread through fluid contacts. What does that have to do with Christianity. Be specific in answering.

"You mention the Philippines. Have you ever been there?? If you have you have certainly seen the people and the large families living and dying on heaps of garbage."

My question : And what does poverty or lack of government's effects to increase its society's living conditions have to do with Christianity? And for your information, one of my Ex Boss and his Mrs (still working with me now) were from Philiphines and they don't look as if came from a very proverty stricken family. Theirs was a middle-class one.

"Ever been in Rio De Janeiro and walked through the favellas (if you can-better have an armed guard). And how about Ireland?? where xian kills xian?? Just not good enough. "

My reply : Dio De Janeiro ... never been there. Then again, I persume it is save to go out through Central Park in night time nowadays.
And Ireland - Christians killing Christians - YES, they do not go to other countries to bomb or ram a plane into a building.

"Stupidity , ridgidity, and dogma's kill people. These three are the hallmark if organized religion. "

My reply : You want proverty? How about the fact that it is reported in 1980 - there was about 1 Million homeless people in US and UK. What's wrong? US spend too much in building churches?

Poverty, famine and natural disasters can strike any country - pal, it have nothing to do with what religion you believe, don't believe or pretend to believe. However, such things as war, internal strife, groups which go to other countries and wage war there is only common in Islam because only in Islam that such act is sanctified by Islam and their so-called "God".

Thor Q. Mada

Dear Seraphim,

Obviously , you have never seen real poverty if you speak about US poverty, and also you haven't seen anything if your reference point is Central Park.
In the Phil and South America, children are born in families which have already 9 or 10 children, and no means to educate them or even keep them alive. The church stance against contraception is the main culprit. Do you have any idea of the power of the church in these places. How do you think aids is spread in these places??. Do you know that one still has to go to a farmacy to buy condoms? And that it is actively discouraged by the omni powerfull church??. Ever been in the Phil countryside?? And your reference, the middle class in the Phil, is pretty small, and mainly from Chinese origin. The rich Philippino's are almost ALL of Chinese origin. Their children don't go to schools in the Phil, but go to US schools leaving the poor to be educated (or kept dumb) by the catholic schools. Go and have alook Seraphim, and start blaming religion in general, and not just one of them.
And by the way, Islam is now in their year 1400 something , and although you say history is not relevant, any idea what Christinaity was doing when it was 1400 years old?? Take a book.
It has all to do with timing and education. Not with being a lesser evil. All religion is evil, because it is an irrational figment of imagination of man.

Seraphim

"Obviously , you have never seen real poverty if you speak about US poverty, and also you haven't seen anything if your reference point is Central Park."

My reply : You think I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth? My family is no better than below average, and I have tasted poverty better than you could imagine. My reference about US is to show that religion has nothing to do with how a government distribute its wealthy and my reference of Centra Park is to show that crime doesn't only happen in poverty-stricken countries alone.

"In the Phil and South America, children are born in families which have already 9 or 10 children, and no means to educate them or even keep them alive. The church stance against contraception is the main culprit. Do you have any idea of the power of the church in these places."

My reply : I went through the net and did read a quite a few article which seems to stating the Church indeed have ban contraception. Maybe it is about time people start thinking about celibacy.

"How do you think aids is spread in these places??."

My reply : How do AIDS spread? If a man or a woman have sex with a SINGLE couple, I don't see how AIDS could be spread.

"Do you know that one still has to go to a farmacy to buy condoms? And that it is actively discouraged by the omni powerfull church??."

My reply : the word here is discouraged ... not condemn for buying a condom, right? Which means a Christian still have a choice whether he could buy and use a condom if he doesn't want to have more children, True?

"Ever been in the Phil countryside?? And your reference, the middle class in the Phil, is pretty small, and mainly from Chinese origin. The rich Philippino's are almost ALL of Chinese origin. Their children don't go to schools in the Phil, but go to US schools leaving the poor to be educated (or kept dumb) by the catholic schools. "

My reply : This is unacceptable. Last I checked, my boss and his wife weren't Chinese, they were Philipines and they didn't tell that things were that hectic in Philipines. They did say things such as Churches having a big influence on the people and local politics.

"Go and have alook Seraphim, and start blaming religion in general, and not just one of them."

My reply : I'm not blaming a religion, to me Islam is not a religion since it has no characteristics of a religion.

"And by the way, Islam is now in their year 1400 something , and although you say history is not relevant, any idea what Christinaity was doing when it was 1400 years old?? Take a book."

My reply : Christians were out conquering other lesser developed countries in name of the kings and queens. Missionary work is SECOND to grabbing other people's wealthy. Islam on the other hand were attacking other countries in attempt to spread Islam and that was the main goal.

"It has all to do with timing and education. Not with being a lesser evil. All religion is evil, because it is an irrational figment of imagination of man. "

My reply : Thanks for explaining ... I can't say much on this since it is your personal views. However, it is my personal view that Islam is a cult and its presence is long overdue.

Thor Q. Mada

OK, sorry but the church condemns the use of contraceptives, and many Philippino's are of Chinese origin, but they are Philippino's, and of course not all rich Philippino's are of Chinese origin, but they all have exploitation of the poor Philippino's in common, and they act as if the Philippines is their personal fiefdom (which it probably is). The catholic church which by the way is also a cult, is their tool for control. And it works very well. And by the way, the church was the tool of the Europeans to grab wealth, as well as to keep the masses stupid. What is the difference between a cult and a religion?? Is it numbers?? or is it the organizatory framework. No matter how your turn it, or whether you look at the last 10 years or the last 1000 years, the record of religion is very very bad.

Seraphim

"OK, sorry but the church condemns the use of contraceptives, and many Philippino's are of Chinese origin, but they are Philippino's, and of course not all rich Philippino's are of Chinese origin, but they all have exploitation of the poor Philippino's in common, and they act as if the Philippines is their personal fiefdom (which it probably is)."

My reply : No matter what you say or how you look at it, it falls on the shoulders of the government to educate the people. If the government could use the church to do so, then it could be a great tool to bring the people together and reduce the poverty.

"The catholic church which by the way is also a cult, is their tool for control. And it works very well. And by the way, the church was the tool of the Europeans to grab wealth, as well as to keep the masses stupid."

My reply : If anyone wants to keep the masses stupid, they couldn't have taught them how to read and write now, would they? Not sure about you, but since 1900s, in some countries in Asia region and South America, the ONLY source of educations. In my country, schools such as Convents still existed even so it had been over 50 years since independence.

"What is the difference between a cult and a religion?? Is it numbers?? or is it the organizatory framework. No matter how your turn it, or whether you look at the last 10 years or the last 1000 years, the record of religion is very very bad. "

My reply : Somehow, I knew you going to ask me that, so I went and found you some interesting reading materials.

<a href="http://rationalthinking.humanists.net/cult_or_religion.htm" target="_blank">http://rationalthinking.humanists.net/cult_or_religion.htm</a>
<a href="http://andstuff.org/StartingPoints" target="_blank">http://andstuff.org/StartingPoints</a>

Religion and its positive effect on the people :

<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~INDIA_RESOURCE/scienceh.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~INDIA_RESOURCE/scienceh.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2104/scripts.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2104/scripts.html</a>
<a href="http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/ahimsaindia1.html" target="_blank">http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/ahimsaindia1.html</a>
<a href="http://www2.gol.com/users/quakers/T&QTao.htm" target="_blank">http://www2.gol.com/users/quakers/T&QTao.htm</a>

This are some example of what religion did to its followers. Not all religion were evil and shred blood, only the ones started on the wrong path to begin with. Time for me to leave. Good night.

Thor Q. Mada

Good night Seraphim. One day you will wake up.

Seraphim

"Good night Seraphim. One day you will wake up. "

My reply : I could say something nice about you no need to hate religions etc, but then again, I don't want you to get impression that I care about you or anyone else here. If one cannot find his way, he shouldn't disturb others to do so.

atheist_in_foxhole

I'd like to know why the folks who run the pageant chose to hold it in Nigeria in the first place. Out of all the countries in Africa they had to pick a polluted, violent hell like Nigeria?!

What did they expect?