Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clutch · 02-25-2003, 07:21 PM

Benjamin Franklin · 02-25-2003, 08:20 PM

I was thinking even if there is something in the the Gospels that really fulfills an old testament prophecy, there is no way one can verify that it was not fabricated as the Gospels lack independent confirmation.

BF

Jack the Bodiless · 02-26-2003, 01:29 AM

Not only is there no indication that Psalms 22:16 is a Messianic prophecy, it also appears to be a mistranslation.

Quote:

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

This should read:

Quote:

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: like lions [at] my hands and my feet.

David is, metaphorically, being tormented by animals snapping at him.

Queen of Swords · 02-26-2003, 04:02 AM

Regarding Psalms 22, I'm a bit confused; how do the following verses apply to Jesus? (Good News version, I don't have my KJV at hand right now)

All my bones are out of joint,
my heart is like melted wax. (Verse 14)

All my bones can be seen. (Verse 17)

O Lord, don't stay away from me!
Come quickly to my rescue!
Save me from the sword,
save my life from these dogs. (Verses 19 - 20)

malookiemaloo · 02-26-2003, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Celsus
This is the best you can come up with? Please quote me the verse in Daniel 9 that's a prophecy about Rome. FYI, Daniel was written c. 168-165BCE.

Here's why:

All of which I wrote a long time ago here.

Joel

Edited to show the emphases

Greetings Vorkosigan and Celsus,

As usual, much to my chagrin, Christian scholars are divided on the dating of Daniel.

I profess to be no expert on the subject, but, on balance, I find the arguments put forward for the book being written around 500bc put forward by R K Harrison in his book 'Introduction to the Old Testament' most authoritative.

Incidentally, Chapter seven records that Daniel wrote down his vision.

Rome is not mentioned in chapter nine but is the fourth beast of chapter seven and the feet of clay in Nebuchadnezzar vision.

I appreciate waht you say re the Maccabees and the sanctuary etc. If Daniel was a history book then it would be an omission. However the Bible is not a history book as such. The point Daniel was making was re Jesus's death. If the Temple was subsequently restored, all well and good, but not directly relevant. That's how it strikes me anyway.

Don't understand the references to Antiochus/Herod.

malookiemaloo

Benjamin Franklin · 02-26-2003, 04:13 AM

Made a mistake, did not read carefully what the poster was asking for.

BF

Jack the Bodiless · 02-26-2003, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Rome is not mentioned in chapter nine but is the fourth beast of chapter seven and the feet of clay in Nebuchadnezzar vision.

Evidence?

Quote:

The point Daniel was making was re Jesus's death.

Evidence?

Celsus · 02-26-2003, 05:11 AM

Hi malookiemaloo,

Quote:

Originally posted by malookiemaloo
As usual, much to my chagrin, Christian scholars are divided on the dating of Daniel.

That's because conservative scholars have no methodology to speak of. "What's the name of the book? That must be the author then." Or "Assume that X in 30 CE is the fulfilment of the prophecy in Daniel. Count years listed in Daniel. Therefore, Daniel was written in x BCE."

Quote:

I profess to be no expert on the subject, but, on balance, I find the arguments put forward for the book being written around 500bc put forward by R K Harrison in his book 'Introduction to the Old Testament' most authoritative.

Perhaps you'd like to give a brief synopsis of it? Either way, a 500BCE date destroys the 70 weeks of years prophecy in Daniel 9. What monumental empire-shattering event occurred in 10BCE? (And of course, this begs the question of how a "week" came to mean "7 years".)

Quote:

Incidentally, Chapter seven records that Daniel wrote down his vision.

Circular reasoning, and of no evidential value

Quote:

Rome is not mentioned in chapter nine but is the fourth beast of chapter seven and the feet of clay in Nebuchadnezzar vision.

It can't be the fourth beast, because it was the first to die:

And as I watched, the [fourth] beast was put to death, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. Daniel 7:11b-12.

Are you telling me that Babylon, Persia and Greece all outlasted Rome?

Quote:

I appreciate waht you say re the Maccabees and the sanctuary etc. If Daniel was a history book then it would be an omission. However the Bible is not a history book as such. The point Daniel was making was re Jesus's death. If the Temple was subsequently restored, all well and good, but not directly relevant. That's how it strikes me anyway.

See, but that's what your sunday school teacher told you. Textual analysis of Daniel reveals several things:

1) Its style conforms perfectly with Apocalyptic literature which existed only between 200BCE and 200CE.
2) Daniel's facts are terribly inaccurate for the purported time period (500s BCE)
3) Daniel's "prophecies" about Antiochus IV Epiphanes (Daniel 11) are amazingly accurate up to 165 BCE
4) Daniel's "prophecies" about Antiochus IV suddenly drop off around 11:35 (which is what I was comparing with in 2 Maccabees).
5) Daniel contains bizarre anachronisms, such as using Greek words (look for the word "music" in Strong's and see what number "music" in Daniel 3:5 is listed under

).

Encyclopaedia Britannica sums it up nicely:

Quote:

For many centuries the apocalyptic character of the Book of Daniel was overlooked, and it was generally considered to be true history, contained genuine prophecy. In fact, the book was included among the prophetic books in the Greek canon. It is now recognized, however, that the writer's knowledge of the exilic times was sketchy and inaccurate. His date for the fall of Jerusalem, for example, is wrong; Belshazzar is represented as the son of Nebuchadrezzar and the last king of Babylon, whereas he actually the son of Nabonidus and, though a powerful figure, was never king; Darius the Mede, a fictitious character perhaps confused with Darius I of Persia is made the successor of Belshazzar instead of Cyrus. By contrast, the book is a not inconsiderable historical source for the Greek period. It refers to the desecration of the Temple in 167 [BCE] and possibly to the beginning of the Maccabean revolt. Only when the narrative reaches the latter part of the reign of Antiochus [IV Epiphanes] do notable inaccuracies appear--an indication of a transition from history to prediction. The book is thus dated between 167 and 164 BCE.

Other considerations that point to this 2nd-century date are the omission of the book from the prophetic portion of the Hebrew canon, the absence of Daniel's name in the list of Israel's great men in Ecclesiasticus [The Wisdom of Jesus, son of Sirach], the books linguistic characteristics, and its religious thought, especially the belief in the resurrection of the dead with consequent rewards and punishments.

Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1989, 15th edition, "Biblical Literature", Vol. 14, p. 803

Don't worry, I was mad about being lied to by my Sunday school teachers as well.

Quote:

Don't understand the references to Antiochus/Herod.

Don't worry about those. My original post was refuting this website claiming the amazing accuracy of Daniel 11, trying, in the typically convoluted apologetic manner, to force the verses after 11:31 to be about Herod.

Joel

P.S. It's "Nebuchadrezzar" or "Nebuchadrezza", not "Nebuchadnezzar"

Edited for some really annoying punctuation and spelling mistakes

Vorkosigan · 02-26-2003, 06:44 AM

Celsus:

:notworthy: :notworthy:

diana · 02-26-2003, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv
What about Psalms 19 (I think. It could be 22.) which predicted that the messiah would die as a result of wounds through his hands and feet a few hundred years before the invention of cruficixion?

I responded to this oft-touted "prophesy" here.

d

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02-25-2003, 07:21 PM	#11
Clutch Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 3,751	<Micah 5:2... Micah 5:2... wait for it... someone will say it...>

02-25-2003, 08:20 PM	#12
Benjamin Franklin Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Oxford, England Posts: 1,182	I was thinking even if there is something in the the Gospels that really fulfills an old testament prophecy, there is no way one can verify that it was not fabricated as the Gospels lack independent confirmation. BF

02-26-2003, 04:02 AM	#14
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Regarding Psalms 22, I'm a bit confused; how do the following verses apply to Jesus? (Good News version, I don't have my KJV at hand right now) All my bones are out of joint, my heart is like melted wax. (Verse 14) All my bones can be seen. (Verse 17) O Lord, don't stay away from me! Come quickly to my rescue! Save me from the sword, save my life from these dogs. (Verses 19 - 20)

02-26-2003, 04:13 AM	#16
Benjamin Franklin Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Oxford, England Posts: 1,182	Made a mistake, did not read carefully what the poster was asking for. BF

02-26-2003, 06:44 AM	#19
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Celsus: :notworthy: :notworthy:

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