manhattan

Whoops, missed this part.

This is also factually incorrect.

The Jews do consider themselves the chosen people, but you seem to misunderstand chosen for what. They have the hard part -- umpteen billion silly hoops to jump through in exchange for a shitty little country.

The rest of us, on the, other hand, only have to follow seven laws, most of them pretty easy (depending on your interpretation), and we've got the same afterlife rights as any Jewish person.

I think you should stop saying things about things about which you clearly know literally nothing at all.

Megatron

Not necessarily, even though by your definition of Jew below, (more on that to come) that could be plausible.

There are, however plenty of atheistic and agnostic ex-Christians, and I'm sure plenty atheistic and agnostic ex-followers of Judaism. This does not necessarily make one a non-Jew.

More on that below, but first...

Gee, thanks pal, I really needed a definition of a relatively common english word delivered to me in a condescending and annoying manner despite the obvious fact that in my original post, I demonstrated by example capable command and understanding of the word. (below.)

Now, while we're on definitions, back to the discussion minus the insignificant tangent on your part...

That's fine, as long as you are willing (and I don't think you are, judging by your already sarcastic and abrasive tone here) to accept the fact that, while this may be your definition, it is not the definition popularly accepted, and you are going to get heat from it. Read devnet's post above for some firsthand clarification.

Talk about a non-sequitur.

Look back up at my previous statement. Now try it this way: "If you aren't [defining "Jew" as "one who subscribes to the religion of Judaism", instead of the more widely accepted definition of "one with Jewish lineage" or "born from a Jewish mother"], then you are ... etc etc.

I never labeled you as an anti-semite, I said that your statement seemed so, were it not for your definition, which you have affirmed.

Judging by your level of paranoia, however, one could definitely make a few assumptions. I will refrain from dropping those here, as this isn't really the place for it.

Religious belief systems, in general, often base their agendas on this... nothing new.

Strange double-negative, and I can't quite get what you mean from that by just reading it. (I believe SWAG method should work here, however.)

Citing historical persecution is yet another non-sequitur, but I'm curious... So, just what exactly are you trying to get at here?

Orpheous99

To Judaism, that's exactly right (except for the part of it being nonsense). An atheist Jew is exactly that -- a Jew not obeying the commandments. If he is atheist enough, he may even be an apostate Jew. But he's still Jewish.

Meaning that you can't leave even if you want to. Sounds more and more like one of those mind control cults. In other words they are only concidered to be rebelling and not serious about not believing anymore because only an insane person would actually leave. I suppose that in Christianity they have this same sort of belief as well. So, those who were once Christian are still Christian, they are only rebelling and not true atheists or agnostics.

If a Jewish person told me this and asked not to be called Jewish, of course I'd respect his wishes. But since every Jewish atheist I've ever met (and I live in New York -- there's no shortage here!) has self-identified as Jewish, I'll feel free to ignore your interpretation. Which, by the way, is factually incorrect as I said.

The term is still an oxymoron. Even if the religious still consider them to be Jewish and only rebelling, to the one who is an atheists or agnostic is only leading a lie since they can't truthfully practice all which makes one even a "cultural" Jew since it is all tied into the religion itself. Name any practice of Jewish culture which isn't tied into their religion in some way?

Megatron

Shit... I need more coffee if I'm so slow that 9 new posts are in by the time I make a reply...

Orpheous99

Gentile means "one without god." So, if you don't belief in the Jewish god then that would make you a gentile as well.

It also means:

Gentile:

2. In this sense 'Gentile' denotes a Christian as contrasted with a Jew; 'goy' is a derogatory word for Christians used by Jews

cjr1851

Oy vay! Alright scrap the word gentile and replace it with non-Jew I think you knew what I meant.

Orpheous99

By the reaction I'm getting here that JUST because they are Jewish and have been persecuted throughout history that this somehow excuses them whenever they do the same to others and anyone who points this hypocrisy out is branded a bigot or an anti-semite. Or called a gentile who couldn't possibility understand their justifications. Well, I come from persecuted peoples as well.

Orpheous99

That's the very thing, I do know what you mean. Remember, a tradition without truth is but an old error.

Gentile and non-Jew are the same thing.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]</p>

cjr1851

I have to say that of all the Jews I know (both within and outside my family) I have never met one who believed that.

Megatron

Whoa... let's slow down this train for a second.

First, the basis of my reaction has absolutely nothing to do with any sort of historical persecution. My reaction is based solely on the fact that you are wielding the word "Jew" like a weapon, and in the manner of something you would spit on the sidewalk.

My reasoning is this:

Regardless of your definition of the word "Jew", your use of it is offensive and insulting to Jews here (and probably anywhere else), even those who are part of our secular community, who are Jewish by heritage but agnostic or atheistic as well.

I could care less if you sat here and bashed the religion of Judaism, and the atrocities that it and all other organized forms of theism are responsible for, whether it be in history or current events.

I simply point out the fact that, whether or not you intend it (which is really irrelevant given the fact that you seem immutable in regard to it), you are speaking in the manner of a stereotypical anti-semite. You could take a little more care in the generalizing, condescending language you throw around (presumably in hope of making more impact and gaining response from sheer shock-factor) and conduct yourself as one who is a little more aware of his surroundings.