smalltown

hawkinghan said : "Actually, it sounds like you are being very close minded. Have you REALLY thought about all the nonsense in the first 2 chapters of Genesis? What about all the scientifically incorrect information in the bible? Do you want me to go into it?"

smalltown replies : 1st we are all close minded, you are as close minded to Creation as I am to Big Bang. Its just that if you are theist you are some how always "close minded" however if you are an atheist you are some how always "enlightened".

2nd you give me no evidence to contradict what happened in Genesis 2, just a bunch of educated "guesses" that should be complete (as you have said) by the end of our lifetime (I am 34). If DNA needs other DNA to procreate from, where did the original DNA come from in the first place ? I'll take my chances with intelligent design (Creator) over Evolution (it just happened).

I will say this, all of the conversation I have had here has been thoughtful and hasn't degenerated into name calling. The only reason I found this page is because someone from here (not this particular thread) went to a Christian page I visit alot and shall I say was not very pleasent. So I figured I would give it a whirl in here and discuss with those who do not believe as I do...

Cipher Girl

I will say this, all of the conversation I have had here has been thoughtful and hasn't degenerated into name calling.

Thanks. In this forum, threads that degenerate into name-calling are usually moved to Elsewhere. And if it gets bad enough, closed.

II forums contain many viewpoints. There is no standard atheist or freethinker position on anything. The only thing we have in common is that we do not subscribe to any religious dogma.

Actually I was once censored and eventually banned on a now defunct christian board for simply explaining my position the same as I do here. There was no name calling from me even though I was called many names. What was ironical was that this board advertised itself as seeking various opinions on things.

Again this seems to illustrate my point. Religious institutions really don't want anyone to really question their theology. Thus the vague description of thier god(s).

The only reason I found this page is because someone from here (not this particular thread) went to a Christian page I visit alot and shall I say was not very pleasent. So I figured I would give it a whirl in here and discuss with those who do not believe as I do...

Go through the thread and see who started the name calling first. Here if someone calls me names, I will let it go for a while, but will enventually respond in kind. And calling someone's ideas ill thought out or dumb, doesn't mean they are calling the person that. People have said some of my ideas are not really my best thinking, but I don't mind. I look to see where the problems lie in my aregument. I don't immediately start calling them names. Of course this applies to both sides of the discussion.

Hawkingfan

I'm sorry, but I don't feel I'm close-minded at all. First and foremost, I look at scientific evidence concerning both theories. There is plenty of evidence supporting the big bang as I have already shown. And when I look at the evidence and logic for creation (something I had previously believed in for over 23 years), I find that scientific truths and logic do not support it. Please consider the following contradictions with scientific evidence (as compiled by Donald Morgan at the Secular Web Modern Library):

GE 1:3-5, 14-19 There was light ("night and day") before there was a sun. (Note: If there were no sun, there would be no night or day. Also, light from the newly created heavenly bodies seems to have reached the earth instantaneously though it now takes thousands or millions of years.)

GE 1:12, 16 Plants began to grow before there was sunlight.

GE 1:29 Every plant and tree which yield seed are given to us by God as good to eat. (Note: This would include poisonous plants such as hemlock, buckeye pod, nightshade, oleander.)

GE 4:15 A mark is placed on Cain as a distinctive identifying symbol when there were only three (known) persons on earth.

GE 6:4 There were giants on the earth at one time. (Note: No evidence exists to supports this assertion.)

GE 7:17-19 The flood covered the entire earth at the same time. (Note: There is no evidence of a worldwide flood, but rather of many, widespread, but local floods.)

EX 17:14 God says that he will utterly blot out the remembrances of Amalek. (That remembrance is now permanently preserved in the Bible.)

LE 11:20-21 There are winged creatures (birds or insects) that go around on all fours. (Note: There are no birds that go around on four legs, and all insects have six or eight legs.)

LE 11:6 (States, incorrectly, that the rabbit, or hare, chews its cud.)

LE 14:33-57 God himself believes that a house or clothes can
have leprosy and he details the remedy.

LE 14:49-53 The cure for leprosy involves incantations and the blood of a bird.

PS 58:8 Slugs and/or snails melt as they move.

PS 121:6 It is apparently possible to suffer moonstroke as well as sunstroke.

DN 4:11 Daniel dreams of a tree so tall that it can be seen to the ends of the earth. (Note: This implies a flat earth.)

MT 4:8 There is a high mountain from which all the kingdoms of the world can be seen. (Note: This implies a flat earth.)

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

I'm afraid I don't have enough room or time to go into the DNA theories, but it is similar to what I exaplained earlier about errors in reproduction. I recommend reading anything by Hawking.

Pyrrho

From what I have read of your posts, you seem more pleasant, as well as more reasonable, than most who post here (and I am not comparing you exclusively to Christians). You must have been at a totally fascist site (which, of course, is not uncommon for those who wish to indoctrinate others).