seanie

Well I admit there was a lot of cruelty, persecution, stupidity and excess, along with destruction, repression and slaughter.

But we got some nice churches out of it.

Rusting Car Bumper

Answer: Time.

DC

sullster

I would say that Europe is more secular because of the already mentioned wars of the Reformation and I would add, The French Revolution, WW1 and 2. After two centuries of killing and destruction, it became obvious to Europeans that even if there is a god, he just doesn't really give a crap about what happens to humans.

GeoTheo

This may be hard for atheists to understand because you are not religious, but the reason is that European countries have state Churches.
Pastors are government workers. No one gives a crap about what they have to say because they work for the state. So this means the Church has less influence on society after a while. The Church has lost its voice there because it blended in with the governments voice.

Mageth

This may be hard for atheists to understand because you are not religious, but the reason is that European countries have state Churches.
Pastors are government workers. No one gives a crap about what they have to say because they work for the state.

In what European country (outside the Vatican City State) are pastors "government workers" working for the state?

Deadend

[speculation]
In the 19th century Europe and America parted ways, religion-wise, in Europe religion went further down the road of (French) enlightenment, and America had some sort of Xtian renaissance
[/speculation]

Mageth

I've recently found an interesting correlation (though not necessarily causation): Most Eurpoean countries have a "state church", and never officially separated church and state.
The U.S. on the other hand, has had a fairly strict separation of church and state, and yet hear we are with one of the most religious populations in the industrialized world.

There are many countries in the world which have a "state church" which are at least as "unsecular" as the U.S.

Carlos

I have a few pet theories:

1. High population density (compared to the US) and being so close to neighboring countries with different cultures/customs results in higher tolerance. I would claim that many religions are not very tolerant and hence people have trouble reconciling religious beliefs with their own experience.

2. Claim 1: in countries where there is an official, state sponsored religion, other religions have trouble taking off. Claim 2: with each generation the religious authorities have less and less influence (children are less pious than their parents; some children abandon religion completely while others continue to follow the path). Result: the power of the official religion declines, "new" religions fail to take off.

Corollary of #2. I believe that most of western europe is experiencing a "population deficit": the death rate is greater than the birth rate (not sure how immigration and emigration figures affect this). This means that a family now brings 1 or 2 children to church instead of 3 or 4. A single child straying has a much greater (domino) effect now than before.

3. Political system is based on multiple parties. (Note: multiple being defined as greater than 2.) Dilutes the political power of religion. Also, the party in power today (more likely a coalition of parties) may not be in power tomorrow; people (and parties) switch allegiances much more easily than in the US. I would like to believe that this form of "survival of the fittest" (in the political arena) encourages people to think the same way about religion.

4. Monarchies - replace one form of irrationality with another. Maybe if we could convince the aliens to send Elvis back this would solve our problem.

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: cau ]</p>

Amos

I can only speak for the Dutch and would say that "you can always tell a Dutchman but you can't tell 'm much."

Albion

I remember reading somewhere, and I'm trying to remember where (maybe "The Battle for God" by Karen Armstrong) that one suggestion was the the church and state in Europe were traditionally closely intertwined so the church was seen as another branch of authority, whereas in the States the church was much more grass-roots right from the start (the Enlightenment didn't reach as much of society in the States either, and local preachers, who weren't all that well educated themselves, were very influential without having to answer to church hierarchies), and that tradition has comtinued. So maybe it's just that here the church is seen as relevant to ordinary people and in Europe it isn't.