Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Veil of Fire · 08-20-2002, 04:53 PM

Apparently just calling it by name when it appears, as if it were a minor demon or something, isn't enough to make it go away. I've tried like three times now.

"If I'm right and you're wrong..."
"PASCAL'S WAGER! BEGONE FROM HERE!"
"Huh? Anyway, as I was saying, if you're right and I'm wrong..."
"GET THEE BEHIND ME, PASCAL'S WAGER!"
"You're really weird. Anyway. I was saying that if I'm right...."
"Goddamnit."

Is there any actual rhetorical trick I can use to beat Pascal's Wager? Speaking it's TrueName(tm) isn't having the desired effect.

Alex Moon · 08-20-2002, 05:04 PM

Let them finish and then either:

1) Shrug and say "yeah, but what if you die and find a really pissed off Allah waiting for you?

or

2) Say "So you mean I don't actually have to worship because I believe, but just because I'm hedging my bets?"

Arrowman · 08-20-2002, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alex Moon:
...Say "So you mean I don't actually have to worship because I believe, but just because I'm hedging my bets?"

Oh yes, indeedy do! And God, of course, will fall for that...

daemon · 08-20-2002, 05:23 PM

Well, there's always the inverse.

Let's say there's a diety. This diety created us and will take us to heaven... if and only if we don't believe in him.

So, what's it gonna be, Christian? If I'm right, I go to heaven, you go to hell...

hinduwoman · 08-20-2002, 09:12 PM

Say you have decided to become hindu/native Indian/australian aboriginal --- the gods are understanding and will let you off the hook if you plead hard enough, and Hindu hell is temporary while the others don't have them (do they?)

99Percent · 08-20-2002, 09:51 PM

How about this inverse:

You bet that God does exist and spend endless amount of time and energy praying, proselytizing, tithing, etc, only to die to be nothing at all. What did you lose? The time wasted in your only and unique existence. Quite a loss eh.

I really do believe in life before death!

[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: 99Percent ]

Heathen Dawn · 08-20-2002, 10:23 PM

Pascal's Wager: so you mean your religion is only fire insurance? That's what I thought all along! Nothing to do with spirituality or holiness!

Lord Asriel · 08-21-2002, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Veil of Fire:
Apparently just calling it by name when it appears, as if it were a minor demon or something, isn't enough to make it go away. I've tried like three times now.

"If I'm right and you're wrong..."
"PASCAL'S WAGER! BEGONE FROM HERE!"
"Huh? Anyway, as I was saying, if you're right and I'm wrong..."
"GET THEE BEHIND ME, PASCAL'S WAGER!"
"You're really weird. Anyway. I was saying that if I'm right...."
"Goddamnit."

Is there any actual rhetorical trick I can use to beat Pascal's Wager? Speaking it's TrueName(tm) isn't having the desired effect.

Rofl!!

Maybe try asking if God is a bookie?

Tercel · 08-21-2002, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 99Percent:
You bet that God does exist and spend endless amount of time and energy praying, proselytizing, tithing, etc, only to die to be nothing at all. What did you lose? The time wasted in your only and unique existence. Quite a loss eh.

I really do believe in life before death!

I'm yet to be convinced that it is any great loss. You won't even remember it when you die... because you won't exist anymore. Everything you achieve will be similarly fleeting. Everything you ever loved or cared about will become pointless dust.
What did you lose? A soon-gone period of potential personal pleasure, quickly replaced by the endless void...

Am I simply an utter pessimist an cynic, or a realist?
Sometimes I worry that I'm only a Christian because I'm abnormally super-skeptical and cynical...

bluefugue · 08-21-2002, 03:40 AM

Standard responses to Pascal's Wager

1) Which religion do you pick? (As Devnet used to remark, Pascal is now burning in Islamic hell.) Do we rank by the one with the worst punishment in an afterlife, or do you cross-reference this with the one with the most believers, or what? If you use some other criterion to pick your religion (i.e. quality of apologetics, or evidential arguments, or personal warm-and-fuzzy feeling) then it renders the carrot/stick of PW moot anyway.

2) How do you "choose" to believe? IMO it would always be a ruse, and any omnipotent God would be able to see through that ruse anyway. It would only work if God only cares about an outward show of devotion (i.e. going through the motions), not about inner belief.

3) Any God so brutal that he would punish mere skepticism with ETERNAL FLAMING DEATH AND AGONY WITH THE BURNING AND THE POKING AND THE PRODDING IN THE GLAVIN!!!!!, might be deceiving you just for the hell of it anyway.

4) The implications of going along with Pascal's Wager are dire. It suggests that a religion should be rewarded for its most brutal tenets. Effectively, it confirms the most cynical and negative suspicions I have about the world -- which is that force, intimidation, and cruelty tend to win the day. (Ironically, these are the fears that a firm Christian faith is supposed to allay.)

I must admit that "Hellmeme" is a viciously effective component of certain religions. You can never *entirely* get it out of your mind; you can never be *absolutely* sure that the afterlife won't come to pass as the Hellmeme-mongers proclaim. It is a brain-algorithm of breathtaking power and brutality. I have not overcome it in my own mind, but in my braver moments I refuse to bow to such an abject threat of naked force. I may well lose that courage on my deathbed, but I will have a hard time losing my conviction that any God who would put us in the situation of having to deal with Pascal's Wager is a brutal tyrant, roughly the moral equivalent of a schoolyard bully who beats up weaker kids for their lunch money.

08-20-2002, 04:53 PM	#1
Veil of Fire Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 451	How to beat Pascal's Wager? Apparently just calling it by name when it appears, as if it were a minor demon or something, isn't enough to make it go away. I've tried like three times now. "If I'm right and you're wrong..." "PASCAL'S WAGER! BEGONE FROM HERE!" "Huh? Anyway, as I was saying, if you're right and I'm wrong..." "GET THEE BEHIND ME, PASCAL'S WAGER!" "You're really weird. Anyway. I was saying that if I'm right...." "Goddamnit." Is there any actual rhetorical trick I can use to beat Pascal's Wager? Speaking it's TrueName(tm) isn't having the desired effect.

08-20-2002, 09:51 PM	#6
99Percent Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: my mind Posts: 5,996	How about this inverse: You bet that God does exist and spend endless amount of time and energy praying, proselytizing, tithing, etc, only to die to be nothing at all. What did you lose? The time wasted in your only and unique existence. Quite a loss eh. I really do believe in life before death! [ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: 99Percent ]</p>

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08-20-2002, 05:04 PM	#2
Alex Moon Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 46	Let them finish and then either: 1) Shrug and say "yeah, but what if you die and find a really pissed off Allah waiting for you? or 2) Say "So you mean I don't actually have to worship because I believe, but just because I'm hedging my bets?"

08-20-2002, 05:23 PM	#4
daemon Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 737	Well, there's always the inverse. Let's say there's a diety. This diety created us and will take us to heaven... if and only if we don't believe in him. So, what's it gonna be, Christian? If I'm right, I go to heaven, you go to hell...

08-20-2002, 09:12 PM	#5
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Say you have decided to become hindu/native Indian/australian aboriginal --- the gods are understanding and will let you off the hook if you plead hard enough, and Hindu hell is temporary while the others don't have them (do they?)

08-20-2002, 10:23 PM	#7
Heathen Dawn Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,656	Pascal's Wager: so you mean your religion is only fire insurance? That's what I thought all along! Nothing to do with spirituality or holiness!

08-21-2002, 03:40 AM	#10
bluefugue Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,427	Standard responses to Pascal's Wager 1) Which religion do you pick? (As Devnet used to remark, Pascal is now burning in Islamic hell.) Do we rank by the one with the worst punishment in an afterlife, or do you cross-reference this with the one with the most believers, or what? If you use some other criterion to pick your religion (i.e. quality of apologetics, or evidential arguments, or personal warm-and-fuzzy feeling) then it renders the carrot/stick of PW moot anyway. 2) How do you "choose" to believe? IMO it would always be a ruse, and any omnipotent God would be able to see through that ruse anyway. It would only work if God only cares about an outward show of devotion (i.e. going through the motions), not about inner belief. 3) Any God so brutal that he would punish mere skepticism with ETERNAL FLAMING DEATH AND AGONY WITH THE BURNING AND THE POKING AND THE PRODDING IN THE GLAVIN!!!!!, might be deceiving you just for the hell of it anyway. 4) The implications of going along with Pascal's Wager are dire. It suggests that a religion should be rewarded for its most brutal tenets. Effectively, it confirms the most cynical and negative suspicions I have about the world -- which is that force, intimidation, and cruelty tend to win the day. (Ironically, these are the fears that a firm Christian faith is supposed to allay.) I must admit that "Hellmeme" is a viciously effective component of certain religions. You can never entirely get it out of your mind; you can never be absolutely sure that the afterlife won't come to pass as the Hellmeme-mongers proclaim. It is a brain-algorithm of breathtaking power and brutality. I have not overcome it in my own mind, but in my braver moments I refuse to bow to such an abject threat of naked force. I may well lose that courage on my deathbed, but I will have a hard time losing my conviction that any God who would put us in the situation of having to deal with Pascal's Wager is a brutal tyrant, roughly the moral equivalent of a schoolyard bully who beats up weaker kids for their lunch money.

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