7thangel

Showing no interest of good communication.

Sometimes, I met atheists say, "well, we do not know happiness without knowing what is loneliness is."

sakrilege

So why don't all xians have the experience that Lesley Ann Downey had, that way they can appreciate heaven better. Those that have a relatively good life are being cheated. The problem is there is no consistency to the xian message. It is changed to fit the circumstances and when looked as a whole contradicts itself.

brighid

I think a more apt version of the happiness schtick is not that one cannot know happiness without lonliness (because that is not actually true), but rather one appreciates joy, happiness, love, etc. more by contrast.

I personally take pause to enjoy the times I feel happy, strong, healthy, loved, etc. because I know that things will naturely happen in my life that will bring times where the opposite is true. This is my only life to live and therefore it is important (to me) that I appreciate what I have cultivated in my life, as well as the circumstances of my birth (such as not being born as a female in a fundamentalist Islam country, or as an African in the Sudan, or as an American female born earlier in the 20th century, etc.) This also motivates me to help others so they may achieve their fullest potential. My rewards and punishments are in this life and I had better make good use of my short time in this Universe.

Brighid

7thangel

We are not all the same, different treatments are given accordingly. I don't think that having the same treatment would bring us to the same conclusion of God. Some have same experiences and still don't believe the same.

I can fairly say that the Christians are inconsistent. Well, we have different denominations, and each has distinct differences. In any case, we accept we can err, but not the God whom we are trying to preach in our messages. And I believe there are messages where Xians should not have had an error to be rightly called preachers of God. And you should not believe all of us, let yourself judge of what is right in your conscience and follow. Because it is very fair to say that just because we are all called christians, does not mean that we are all of "good." I appeal that you be fair enough to judge those who create inconsistincies and makes the messages of God contradictory to be not representatives of God.

7thangel

The quote implies the necessity of evil to justify our good motives.

I don't think you disagreed with me, thinking that your examples are considerd as negatives, that motivates you of your positive situation.

christ-on-a-stick

7thAngel, Xian family and friends have told me that "God always answers prayers, it's just that the answer is either yes, no, or "wait" (nothing happens at the time)".

My question in response: what *exactly* is the difference between "wishing" and "praying"?

I am no longer a Xian and I often "wish" or "hope" for something to happen (not thinking it has any magical power of course). Guess what happens:

A) Sometimes I get what it is that I hoped for! Yay.
B) Sometimes the opposite of what I hope for happens. Bummer.
C) Sometimes nothing happens... I am waiting, waiting... such is life.

Isn't this EXACTLY what will happen in any given situation whether one prays or not? It has certainly seemed so in my life post-Christianity as well as in the lives of many other ex-Christians I know.

Throughout my life, bad things have happenned to me and good things have happened to me pretty much the same as when I was "praying without ceasing" (not just intercessory prayer but worship/praise/reflection as well) and since I haven't prayed in years. Actually, I've noticed that a few MORE good things have happenned for me since I've *stopped* praying, since I've taken situations into my own hands and actually DONE things to bring about positive change instead of sitting on my arse and asking the ceiling for guidance.

Anyway, my point is that the Xian line of "the answer could be yes no or wait" makes it totally indistinguishable from NON-praying and also makes it impossible to verify or prove whether it (prayer) WORKS or not, which I highly suspect is intentional at least in part... if Xians actually STUCK to Jesus' words of "whatever you ask in my name will be done" without twisting it, adding to it or making big caveats, it would be obvious immediately that his words were false.

Essentially it makes the claim of the power of prayer ultimately unfalsifiable.

Debbie T

Thank you Helen for you thoughts on this matter. I agree that it isn't fair to look for reasons. Reminds me of blaming the victims for what happens to them.

I am doing fine now, although I don't know if any abuse victim ever totally gets over it, there still are bad days and triggers. Thank you for having empathy it sometimes appears to be a rare quality. I don't however bring this up so that people will feel sorry for me. I bring this up to show that prayer does not get answered. Spurlie made a point to say prayers unanswered had to be a selfish request. I think it is an insult to anyone who has prayed because of situations like I did. Or as others brought up about Leslie who died praying to god to help her.

Bree

I have done the support-group gamut and have seen some young women actually blame themselves for or become complacent with their abuse because of prayer. They were taught that their prayers were not answered because they ("dear God, please save me from X") were selfish in nature, and God did not bestow blessings upon people who asked for His intervention in a selfish way. They decided that God had placed them in their various situations in order to make them "better people" - one lady called her rapist her "refiner's fire" for God's greater purpose.

Debbie T

I am perplexed also, and perplexed when Christians get angry about my story or a story similiar.

I have the same problem especially being a parent myself and knowing my love would make me do anything to protect my child including laying my life down for her if need be. There is no way I or any other loving parent could ignore their child crying out for help no matter what the situation is.

You being a victim knows what this abuse does to you.


I don't know how much that would have helped but at least it would have been an anwer.

This would not be a loving parent or god for that matter. No matter how Christians try and cover this up, there is no love from a god that would see a child suffer. Or love has an entirely different meaning then how I know it to be.


Thank you Brighid for saying what I sometimes can not communicate to Christians when they say these things to those of us who have survived.

Debbie T

How was this lady doing? Do you think this helped her get past the rape, or was it a form of denial that would someday rear its ugly head up and grab her into depression?

So the rapist did her a favor then? That really makes me feel bad for this woman to have a self esteem so low to accept that. How could anyone find healing from that?

Asking god for help in serious situations is selfish then. No wonder god doesn't intervene for us. So it makes sense for all of us not to pray, perhaps take self defense courses, carry pepper spray and try to stay out of dangerous situations such as staying out of the WTC on 9/11.