Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 04-08-2002, 09:52 AM

<a href="http://www.middleeastbooks.com/html/books/halsell-f.html" target="_blank">Forcing God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture--And the Destruction of Planet Earth</a>

from a review on the site:

Quote:

...
To understand Halsell’s Forcing God’s Hand, many readers will have to learn a new vocabulary including: Gog, Magog, the Rapture, the Tribulations, the Antichrist, Gomar, the Gog-Magog wars, dispensationalism, and Born Again.

Perhaps the key word is dispensationalism, meaning to Armageddonists that history is divided into epochs, or time periods, having a fixed order of progression. Dispensationalists believe Jews are to return to Canaan of the Bible, where a Jewish state is to be established.

This idea contradicts traditional belief, which has held that salvation comes through personal sacrifice and suffering. The doctrine that promises no pain explains the popularity of TV evangelists Tim La Hoya, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and others who “sell” the idea that by simply saying you are “born again” you can be snatched away to a heavenly grandstand seat where you can watch the next Holocaust below.

...

Halsell writes also that Reverend Falwell never exposes his tour groups to Palestinian Christians, although they constitute about 15 percent of the Palestinian residents of the Holy Land. This, combined with the fact that at the time Halsell made her trips Falwell was flying around the United States in a $3 million airplane put at his disposal by Israel, raises questions about his honesty.

Dispensationalism seems to be a growing force in the U.S. All of the top Southern Baptist leaders appear to be adherents. In fact, Charismatic church groups, favoring dispensationalism have sprung up all over the United States. They believe the world will soon come to an end, which they welcome. And as editor Ted Daniels of the Millennium Prophecy Report newsletter, quoted by Ms. Halsell, notes, “People who expect the world to end soon do strange things.”

The most disturbing thought is that the made-up theology of dispensationalism and the existing, heavily armed state of Israel are in alliance, each strengthening the other. All this makes violence—in support of dangerous ideologies and questionable dogmas—quite acceptable. Who knows which violent outbursts by impressionable groups in our own time and country may arise from the doctrinaire depths of dispensationalism?

Methos · 04-08-2002, 07:19 PM

As I talked about in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000204" target="_blank">another thread</a> (which might be getting moved, I don't know), I had my first exposure to the Antichrist and the end-times by listening to the Easter weekend sermons of my former church. While I was going there last year, things like "The end is coming, are you prepared?" were a staple of the sermons, but the pastor never got into specifics (and I never had any desire to go to anything other than the Sunday morning service during my four months there).

Anyway, when I first saw this thread, it didn't make much sense to me. Now I realize that a lot of Christian churches are praying for the rapture to happen sooner rather than later, but I didn't see how they could be attempting to force the rapture. The Antichrist (from what I understand) is supposed to bring peace to Israel, and then after 3.5 years reveal his true colors, or something along those lines. But how can Christians cause this to happen? When reading the responses in this thread, people made it quite clear. If there is no Israel, then the rapture can't happen until such a time that Israel exists again. That might explain why Christian fundamentalists are so gung-ho on siding with Israel and keeping that country alive.

Now, of course I feel that Israel should be protected. They're just as in the wrong as the Palestinians are, but that doesn't mean that an entire country should be wiped off the face of the earth. I always thought that it was political and financial motivations behind our helping of Israel, but this makes you think that it might not be just that simple.

Could fundamental Christians be trying to manipulate everything into place for the rapture scenario? It's possible, but I don't know. What I am 99.9% sure about is that we won't have to worry about it. Even if everything happens according to Biblical propecy, there's not going to be an Antichrist or a false prophet or mark of the beast or any other Revelation horrors. Hey, maybe I'm wrong. But Christians have been saying for nearly 2000 years that "the end is coming," and it still hasn't happened yet. The idea that a 4.5 billion year old earth is going to come to an end in the beginning of the 21st century of a calendar that we made up is laughable, but that's getting off the point here

. Bottom line, this thread made me think about something that I had never given any thought to. And that's a good thing.

Eric

oriecat · 04-08-2002, 07:21 PM

All of this stuff is very disturbing and confusing. 18 months ago when I was involved online with a fundy (he hid it from me for 5 months!) and it came out and he started berating me for my lack of belief, he kept talking about how I should watch what was going on in Israel. How does Jews and Muslims fighting proves Christianity is true?

Yeah, he was a dumbass. And then in his final letter to me, he went on about how I really need to look into these things, he didn't want to have to say I told you so, time was running out. "It will happen in our lifetime." I'll never forget that sentence that made me realize what a nutjob he was...

(Edited to bold "will" since it was originally underlined.)

[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: oriecat ]

Toto · 04-09-2002, 05:10 PM

<a href="http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=13100" target="_blank">What Falwell is up to now</a>

Quote:

...
In an approximately 700-word e-mail the Rev. Falwell gives you 5 opportunities to "Click Here to give an online donation!"

The Rev. Falwell has a long history of support for Israel. In a January 1998 article in the New York Times, Laurie Goodstein reports that Falwell and several leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention ... "told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel that they would mobilize evangelical churches to oppose steps to give up any more territory to the Palestinians."

Falwell said, "There are about 200,000 evangelical pastors in America, and we're asking them all through e-mail, faxes, letters, telephone, to go into their pulpits and use their influence in support of the state of Israel and the prime minister."

The Israeli government and evangelical Christians "may appear to be strange bedfellows, but they are old ones." Goodstein writes: " prime ministers from Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir, both Likud leaders, to Yitzhak Rabin, of Labor, have broken bread with evangelical Christians vocal in their support for the Jewish state."

Some say evangelicals loyalty to the state of Israel stems from their reading of the book of Genesis in which, Goodstein reports, "God promises to bless the nations that bless the Jews, and curse the nations that curse the Jews.

'On the issue of Israel, there is no one stronger than evangelicals,' said an Israeli official who helped plan Netanyahu's visit to the United States. Some evangelicals read certain Bible passages to mean that an 'ingathering' of Jews to Israel is a prerequisite to an apocalyptic war that will usher in the second coming of Christ. But some Jewish leaders who have been active in reaching out to evangelicals said Tuesday that they have rarely heard evangelicals mention that factor mention as a reason for supporting Israel." Falwell has denied that he is one of those who see modern-day Israel as merely "the last chapter before a great war."

And of course the evangelicals would be absolutely honest and up front about their motives...

Toto · 04-12-2002, 01:11 PM

<a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/dreher/dreher041102.asp" target="_blank">Red-Heifer Days</a>

Quote:

To Jews who adhere to ancient tradition, whose number include religious Israeli nationalists, the long-awaited Messiah will return to become the king of Israel and high priest of a rebuilt Temple, which can only be on Temple Mount. For Christian fundamentalists, Jesus Christ's return at the height of the battle of Armageddon, in which forces of the Antichrist clash in Israel with a 200 million-man army from the East, will require a Third Temple from which the Lord will begin a millennial reign. And for Muslims, an Antichrist figure called the Dajal will be a Jew who will lead an all-encompassing war against Islam, which will culminate in the return of Jesus (as a Muslim prophet), the Kaaba, or Sacred Rock in Mecca, transporting itself to Jerusalem, and final judgment in the valley just below the Noble Sanctuary.
. . .

In 1996, thanks in part to a cattle-breeding program set up in Israel with the help of Texas ranchers who are fundamentalist Christians, a red heifer was born. There was immense excitement among messianists of the Israeli religious Right, and their American Christian counterparts. The world media covered it as a joke, but it wasn't funny to David Landau, columnist for the Israeli daily Haaretz. He called the red heifer "a four-legged bomb" that could "set the entire region on fire." Muslim leaders worried about the red heifer too, as they would see an attempt by Jews to take over the Temple Mount as a sign of the Islamic apocalypse.

As it turned out, during the three years of waiting for the heifer to reach the ritually mandated age of sacrifice, white hairs popped out on the tip of her tail. This bovine was, alas, not divine. But now there's a successor, and rabbis who have examined her have declared her ritually acceptable (though she will not be ready for sacrifice for three years).
. . .

Timothy Weber, dean of Northern Baptist Theological Seminary in Lombard, Ill., has written extensively about the worldview of apocalypse-minded American Protestants. He tells NRO that "Bible teachers are foaming at the mouth over what's happening now in Israel."

. . .

[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]

Toto · 04-17-2002, 10:00 AM

Another take from the Rev Moon's Washington Times:

<a href="http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020406-17874966.htm" target="_blank">Conflict begins a new debate on end times </a>

Quote:

"I see Israel as the only nation on Earth with a title deed to any real estate," said Hal Lindsey, who popularized the study of Bible prophecy in his 1970 book, "The Late Great Planet Earth."

...

Though all Christian traditions adhere to the Bible, mainline Protestants and Roman Catholics take such prophecies and Israel symbolically.
Mainline Protestants also have historic missions in Arab Palestine and side with their cause, while Rome has Arab districts and sees Jerusalem as an international city.
In contrast, evangelicals such as Pat Robertson back Israel, and the Rev. John Hagee, a San Antonio pastor, built an international ministry on interpreting Middle East events.
...

Toto · 04-21-2002, 07:25 PM

<a href="http://www.bartcop.com/inhofeeast.htm" target="_blank">Inhofe's Pro-Apocalypse Foreign Policy </a> Why Conservative Christians Back A Genesis-Inspired Mid-East Map, by David Corn.

Berenger Sauniere · 04-22-2002, 04:24 PM

The apocalypse/rapture will be nothing more than the origins of numerous religions being made public. Here's the condensed version of what will unfold in the U.S.(and other countries as well): virtually every institution/business that derives an income from religion will go belly-up practically over night. The sporting industry will be decimated (football, baseball, basketball etc. will be no more, or at least will no longer generate an income). As a result of all this the U.S economy will almost be obliterated. Unemployment numbers will be staggering. The makers of body bags/caskets will not be able to meet production demands due to the unprecedented numbers of suicides (mostly fundies) and murders.

On a happier note, atheism and agnosticism will finally be in.

Ragnarok · 04-22-2002, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Berenger Sauniere:
The apocalypse/rapture will be nothing more than the origins of numerous religions being made public.

But how would it happen? I mean after all this time you're not going to find the Corpse of Christ or some little note Moses or Muhammed wrote to his mom explaining how he faked the whole thing to become a big wig. Will rationality spread and people stop believing? I think the world is rolling the other way right now.

Daydreamer · 04-22-2002, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MoCk:
But how would it happen? I mean after all this time you're not going to find the Corpse of Christ or some little note Moses or Muhammed wrote to his mom explaining how he faked the whole thing to become a big wig. Will rationality spread and people stop believing? I think the world is rolling the other way right now.

It rocks back and forth constantly - Rational in the Enlightenment followed by a Religious backlash in the 19th century was a major one on the macro level. In the US I partially agree - I think we're on the tail end of the 1970's religious resurgence.

04-08-2002, 07:21 PM	#13
oriecat Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Portland OR USA Posts: 1,098	All of this stuff is very disturbing and confusing. 18 months ago when I was involved online with a fundy (he hid it from me for 5 months!) and it came out and he started berating me for my lack of belief, he kept talking about how I should watch what was going on in Israel. How does Jews and Muslims fighting proves Christianity is true? Yeah, he was a dumbass. And then in his final letter to me, he went on about how I really need to look into these things, he didn't want to have to say I told you so, time was running out. "It will happen in our lifetime." I'll never forget that sentence that made me realize what a nutjob he was... (Edited to bold "will" since it was originally underlined.) [ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: oriecat ]</p>

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04-08-2002, 07:19 PM	#12
Methos Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 45	As I talked about in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000204" target="_blank">another thread</a> (which might be getting moved, I don't know), I had my first exposure to the Antichrist and the end-times by listening to the Easter weekend sermons of my former church. While I was going there last year, things like "The end is coming, are you prepared?" were a staple of the sermons, but the pastor never got into specifics (and I never had any desire to go to anything other than the Sunday morning service during my four months there). Anyway, when I first saw this thread, it didn't make much sense to me. Now I realize that a lot of Christian churches are praying for the rapture to happen sooner rather than later, but I didn't see how they could be attempting to force the rapture. The Antichrist (from what I understand) is supposed to bring peace to Israel, and then after 3.5 years reveal his true colors, or something along those lines. But how can Christians cause this to happen? When reading the responses in this thread, people made it quite clear. If there is no Israel, then the rapture can't happen until such a time that Israel exists again. That might explain why Christian fundamentalists are so gung-ho on siding with Israel and keeping that country alive. Now, of course I feel that Israel should be protected. They're just as in the wrong as the Palestinians are, but that doesn't mean that an entire country should be wiped off the face of the earth. I always thought that it was political and financial motivations behind our helping of Israel, but this makes you think that it might not be just that simple. Could fundamental Christians be trying to manipulate everything into place for the rapture scenario? It's possible, but I don't know. What I am 99.9% sure about is that we won't have to worry about it. Even if everything happens according to Biblical propecy, there's not going to be an Antichrist or a false prophet or mark of the beast or any other Revelation horrors. Hey, maybe I'm wrong. But Christians have been saying for nearly 2000 years that "the end is coming," and it still hasn't happened yet. The idea that a 4.5 billion year old earth is going to come to an end in the beginning of the 21st century of a calendar that we made up is laughable, but that's getting off the point here . Bottom line, this thread made me think about something that I had never given any thought to. And that's a good thing. Eric

04-21-2002, 07:25 PM	#17
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	<a href="http://www.bartcop.com/inhofeeast.htm" target="_blank">Inhofe's Pro-Apocalypse Foreign Policy </a> Why Conservative Christians Back A Genesis-Inspired Mid-East Map, by David Corn.

04-22-2002, 04:24 PM	#18
Berenger Sauniere Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: et in Arcadia ego... Posts: 406	The apocalypse/rapture will be nothing more than the origins of numerous religions being made public. Here's the condensed version of what will unfold in the U.S.(and other countries as well): virtually every institution/business that derives an income from religion will go belly-up practically over night. The sporting industry will be decimated (football, baseball, basketball etc. will be no more, or at least will no longer generate an income). As a result of all this the U.S economy will almost be obliterated. Unemployment numbers will be staggering. The makers of body bags/caskets will not be able to meet production demands due to the unprecedented numbers of suicides (mostly fundies) and murders. On a happier note, atheism and agnosticism will finally be in.

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