Vinnie

I issued a challenge for a debate here:

http://theologyweb.com/forum/showthr...&threadid=7483

I'll extend the same offer here as well

Vinine

CX

Anybody here who is willing to take the negative obviously hasn't been here long enough.

Celsus

Vinnie,

Are you making a one-on-one challenge, or taking on all (however few) comers? If you want a one-on-one, I'll move this thread to the Formal Debates Challenge & Setup Forum.

Incidentally, so people don't have to bother with the hideous interface of that board, Vinnie's challenge is:
Joel

Vinnie

Probably not But I think my arguments might go a little further and into more depth though. Demonstrating that the texts do not have early attestation or demonstrating that the texts have not been shown to be like the autographs isn't the same as demonstrating that the texts are most likely nothing like the autographs. It is the latter that I think I can argue quite convincingly. The former should be taken for granted given the lacking manuscript attestation.

Vinnie

Vinnie

One on one or one on whatever. I'll take what I can get but it doesn't look like anyone wants to play with me

Vinnie

mark9950

What do you mean textual instability and are you pro or con?

Capt_Drakes

You could try http://www.theologyforums.com/forums...?s=&forumid=17

There are a few there who might take up the challenge.

judge

For some reason my home computer has awful problems with the theologyweb site, so I can't join in there. My work computer finds it OK.

The 22 books of the eastern peshitta (nt) are very stable. These are written in aramaic and the greek versions were translated from them. This is why there are variants amongst the freek texts at at times.

Vinnie

J.P. Holding has accepted my open challenge. We are in the process of working out the details of the debate now. I just responded but it takes a while for a post to show up as the forum is moderated.

Vinnie

Steven Carr

Holding states he will be defending his position in

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_02_02_01.html
This concedes that early Christian scribes would alter the text for doctrinal reasons.

'However, the orthodox corrupters changed the verse to read, "Joseph and his mother marvelled..." ' writes Holding.

As Holding already conceded?

Note that Holding deals with only one of Ehrman's places where the text was changed early. Did people add a eucharistic scence to Luke? Did people add 'Son of God' to Mark 1:1? Holding never tells his gullible readers that Ehrman makes out a strong case for these being additions to the original text.



http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/reli2.htm gives some of the details.

Holding never discusses these in his article, preferring half-truths (Ehrman used original readings, which have been preserved in early manuscripts), while not telling his readers how these original readings affect Christian doctrines, and how most Bibles (eg the NIV) do NOT print the original readings , as identified by Ehrman, but prefer readings which Ehrman says are not original.

As an aside,

Holding also writes '
'In another place, Ehrman asserts that the Gnostics could make a "plausible" case for claims of apostolicity: According to Clement of Alexandria, Valentinus was a disciple of Theudas, who was "allegedly" a disciple of Paul; and Basilides studied under Glaukia, a "supposed disciple" of Peter! [ibid., 22] I find VERY LITTLE plausibility for apostolicity here, inasmuch as a) the discipleship links are alleged, not definitive - by Ehrman's own admission! - and, b) after three generations, a goodly degree of change is possible - and there is quite a change from Paul to Valentinus and Peter to Basilides!'

So Holding scoffs at the idea that Valentinus could have been a disciple of a companion of Paul, because of the time gap.

However Holding writes in http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_02_02_02_JN.html

'The authorship of John has some interesting permutations. Kümmel pessimistically states that there is "no possibility of breaking through the anonymity" of John's Gospel [Kumm.Int, 234-7]. We do have a church tradition cited by Irenaeus (c. 180 AD), who quotes Polycarp:

John, the disciple of the Lord, who leaned back on his breast, published the Gospel while he was resident at Ephesus in Asia...'

and Holding defends this chain of hearsay to the teeth....

JP (double-standards) Holding strikes again.