davidH

Creation that is wanted to be taught in schools is not the view that the earth is flat, nor that it is supported on pillars or anything like that.

There are no Biblical imperfections that I have found.

The creation account in Genesis doesn't support a flat earth or vaulted heavens etc. It simply states that the earth and heavens were created by God.

You see whenever you say "unless you believe every word in scripture is true" what exactly do you mean?

Do you mean that everyword in scripture was spoken by someone or the event did happen - then yes I do believe that every word in scripture is true.
But never does the scripture say that man is to believe in a flat earth and vaulted heavens...that was the belief of the ancient people, and that belief is shown when they praise God for the universe.

So there is no imperfection in that - is there?
The words were recorded as praise - not to promote a flat earth etc.

If the Bible came out with the fact that God spoke to the Israelites saying - the earth is flat, - be wary incase you fall of the edge when you travel the seas.
That would be an error - since God can't lie and he has just told people to becareful incase they fall off the earth - when they can't. That couldn't be poetic language either.
But there are no such errors.

So I do believe what God says - but a lot of stuff in the Bible is man's experience and how God has helped and intervened etc.
Using those verses to say the Bible is in error is like using the fact that King David committed adultery to say that the Bible is promoting adultery - when this is obviously not the case.


That is why you will get opposition when you go onto any Christian site and say that the Bible is imperfect because of the flat earth references.
Some people will try to explain away the verses as meaning something else - when infact they forget that the Bible never says that what man said was correct in the first place.


You could then bring up the point that don't I believe that all scripture is God inspired.
Yes, I do believe it is.
God inspired people to praise him in the way they did, so that other people could in turn be inspired through that praise.
But - then the point is brought up again - people can't praise God with knowledge they don't have - they could only praise God with the knowledge about the universe and the earth at that time. That doesn't make their praise any less sincere or inspired.

Hope you get the jist of what I am trying to get across here! lol.

Though I have read a few threads of christians trying to deny that the Bible promotes a flat earth - but instead of showing that that was what was understood at that time, they try and deny that those verses have anything to do with a flat earth (some verses mightn't but some do).

I'm sure you have come across that before

Foxhole Atheist

To davidH:

From: Job 38
"Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.

How do you derive:

“God explains that the earth is like a Babylonian seal cylinder turning on the clay to leave its imprint. - Many of these ancient seals can be seen in the British museum - on the rounded cylinder was the incised inscription, a stick was pushed down the hole through the cylinder and this enabled the owner to roll the cylinder over the clay so leaving the impression on the tablet.

What makes the sun rise? God says that it is because the earth turns like a seal as if on an axis.

Interesting that, not the view that the sun and the stars move around the earth, but rather that the earth turned as if on an axis.”

I have read all of Job and can find no reference to a Babylonian seal cylinder nor the earth turning as if on an axis. From 6 lines you have given a treatise on the “art of reading between the lines”. Pardon my tort if there is reference elsewhere to support your explanation. I would be very interested in learning more.

In those days, the ring seal as well as many other types of seals were known. How is the BSC implied here.

I find it more interesting that in the same verses, the ends of the earth are to be taken hold of wherein the wicked are shaken out. From these terms, standing out like a garment makes more sense as something in 2 planes being formed almost as is done in a silk-screen process. Perhaps, this garment from which the wicked are shaken can be construed as laying flat, like the earth itself as know during that time.

Bede

Michael,

My book is Toby Huff, The Rise of Early Modern Science, 1993, Cambridge. Here's what I think it says:

The Islamic astronomers from the Maragha observatory in Persia (14th century) and later in Damascus developed new mathematical models such as the Tusi couple identical to those later utilised Copernicus. However, Huff is adamant that whereas Copernicus built these techniques into a heliocentric system, the Arabs produced a geocentric system that gave the same predictions. He devotes considerable attention to why the Arabs, with all the necessary tools and a two hundred year start, never made the conceptual leap.

So the maths was the same but the model wasn't. Perhaps that is the confusion.

Yours

Bede

<a href="http://www.bede.org.uk" target="_blank">Bede's Library - faith and reason</a>

Vorkosigan

Perhaps. Interesting that they never made the conceptual leap. Neither did the Chinese, for that matter, with excellent tools as well.

Vorkosigan

Marduk

oh bother, there was a post in here a week or two ago (which I can't find now) that suggested the Egyptians, or at least the high preists, were aware the Earth revolved around the Sun. I think the source was the Catholic Encyclopedia. And I remember reading Copernicus quoted Egyptian sources. Anyone remember who posted that? I believe they had a link.

Answerer

Sometimes, I wonder guys as why westerners and Americans, who are so advanced in the fields of science and rational thinking, could put so much faith in an irrational and illogical crap such as the bible? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Foxhole Atheist

Answerer:

I think it may be called "Cognitive Dissonance".

Answerer

Sounds like a serious mental problem to me.

Foxhole Atheist

"Sounds like a serious mental problem to me."

Yes. That it is.