seebs

I'm just pointing out that, if you think you need to try things to know them, then you can't possibly really know that these problems can't be solved.

I don't know. That's a very interesting question. People sometimes self-identify as happy, then later look back and say "I wasn't happy", or vice-versa.

seebs

Must there?

I mean, consider how you'd feel if someone said "Why does it have to be evolution *or* special creation? Why not some happy medium?"

Or, how about "I think some people err on the side of mass murder, but I don't think the no-killing-at-all rule is right either; there must be some happy medium."

(EDIT)
I have just realized how biased these examples are. In the other direction, we might have things like "why does it have to be either freedom to listen to whatever you want, or nothing but Christian country&western? Can't there be a happy medium?"

The general point here is that there is not necessarily a happy medium on all issues. Sometimes, one side is wrong.
(/EDIT)


I think that, on some issues, one side may be right, and the other wrong. The appeal to the desire to find a middle ground is not a good argument.

Of course, neither is "well, this one's different". I tend to think that the middle ground here is to recognize the distinction between commitment and civil marriage, but I still mostly stick with my opinion that sex-without-commitment is not a good thing. I may be wrong, and it seems like being judgemental about it would be a sign of pathetic insecurity.

For me, the middle ground is "monogamy and commitment for me, and the rest of you get to make your own decisions".

scigirl

Fair enough. That's your and her right to do so. And you chose an arbitrary place.

What I have a problem with, however, is you judging other people, or calling them immoral, for choosing a different arbitrary place.

scigirl

Yep, that's what Bill said to Monica.

In your opinion.

Why?

Why?

scigirl

Opera Nut

"prove your sincerity and loyalty to the other person"??

Why should you have to prove anything when you're dating?

When you're young you should play the field, not get tied down to the first person that you go out the door with. Learn about yourself and others and figure out what you need and what you can give to others without being a doormat.

Anybody who tells me I have to "earn their respect" is automatically suspect. That means they are a sociopath that can never be satisfied, and they will never pull their weight in a relationship -- they are always "testing you" to see if you "measure up to their standards".

You should have standards but that's not the way to make people meet them. Punishment and put downs do not work as far as making people cooperate, and have never worked, although they are still widely used in society.

Just because a relationship is not committed "til death do us part", does not mean that it is not a good or fulfilling relationship. You Christbots have a problem with dating and comparison shopping for a mate. You see commitment as more important than happiness.

My parents' generation, the Depression generation, nearly always stayed married, no matter what. They just griped and fought all the time, and made us kids miserable. That was a long marriage but it sure as hell wasn't happy. That is no way to live. Just because someone is married for a long time doesn't mean it's a good marriage. That's why the boomer generation, decided to get divorced when the situation was unworkable, or the other person refused to work things out, and did not change their behavior. We saw old people nagging each other to death. We would rather try again and learn from our mistakes.

Would you rather be in a committed but fraudulent marriage?
Or divorced and ready to look for a better person to be with, that isn't a fraud? You probably think suffering is good for people.
More bullcrap.

My parents never hit each other, but I heard them arguing at night and was always SCARED TO DEATH they would divorce. That is no way to grow up. They were married for 53 years.

Staying together for the kids is not good if the momma, the daddy and the kids are ALL miserable.
Life is too short to be miserable and take the kids with you.

seebs

Because the world is full of insincere people, and if you want to be treated as sincere, you'll have to prove it.

And what does that have to do with sex?

There seems to me to be a big gap between needing to earn respect and the realization that someone is a sociopath - do you even know what that word means? - who can *never* be satisfied.

Sounds to me like the bitterness is talking.

Comparison shopping turns any mate into a temporary shacking-up until something better comes along. The world is full of people better than me, so comparison-shopping means I will always be at risk of being dumped.

Doesn't sound like happiness to me.

Once again, sounds like bitterness talking from here. False dichotomy here.

Well, curiously, it appears to generally be better for the kids than the alternatives.

alek0

What I would like to know is why those of you who were lucky enough not to encounter problems which could not be solved in your relationship doubt experiences of those who did encounter such problems?

This thread is full of it: allergies don't realy happen, too big doesn't happen etc. Yeah, right. If there is a problem, you would have solved it if you tried hard enough. Yeah, right. Why does this sound so much like "you haven't found Jesus because you haven't really opened your heart to him"?

I'm asking again - what is wrong with verifying compatibility in all issues that matter to a person before commiting oneself for a long term relationship, sex included? Why should sex be treated any different?

seebs

Well, partially because I have encountered problems which "could not be solved", and then it turned out they could be solved.

Dunno. But I do know that, when I've heard people talk about "insoluble" problems, they've often been things that didn't sound like they'd be insoluble... depending on what you define as a "solution".

Good question. The basic reason I'd give is that sex is too deep in the human psyche to be a good subject for experimentation...

For me, anyway, I don't think I can come up with a non-empty set of relationships which are far enough along and serious enough for sexual compatibility to matter, in which lack of it would be a deal-breaker.

Opera Nut

good points, Alek0. Excellent points.

"Staying marriage is better for the kids than the alternative"???

You got any facts to back that one up???

I was certainly miserable as a child listening to my parents argue, and they weren't beating each other up; it would have been totally unbearable had they been beating each other up.
I'm sure there are lots of other people out there who had far worse experiences in an unbroken marriage where both people were determined to make the other partner miserable, and ignore the damage to the kids.

My points are not getting through to some people. Yes, I am bitter and I have had some bitter experiences with some pretty sick people that I was unaware were that messed up when I married them. And some that I became aware that there was a big problem with them when I was engaged, and broke off the engagement and didn't marry them.

I'm speaking from real world experience and no, nobody can tell me I didn't try hard enough. You just haven't encountered a stubborn enough partner that thinks they are always right, are verbally abusive, emotionally withdrawn, not interested in sex, totally emotionally destructive, etc.

A piece of paper is not gonna make two people stay together;
conversely, NOT having a piece of paper will not drive people apart, if they are really committed.

Seebs, if you are so insecure about comparison shopping, and fear you might be dumped, then maybe your partner has a problem settling down. If it's the real thing, then the commitment should not be a problem. Marriage certificates don't prevent people from looking or straying.

I've been faithful to my boyfriend for 9 years. And he's been faithful to me. We aren't doing any more comparison shopping.
We ARE committed. Our relationship is FAR FAR BETTER than our legal marriages were. Our legal marriages were HELL on Earth due to our bad choices, due to lack of judgment or experience.
I never thought I would find the man that I decided was my soul mate, and he never thought he could find a woman who would listen to the depths of his soul, listen to his dreams and thoughts, and be sexually responsive to him instead of laying there like a dead fish.

And no, we did NOT jump in bed on the first date. We waited a long time. I didn't go gaga over him at first sight, nor was I consumed with lust at first sight. We were both cautious, having been thru disastrous marraiges before. We've both been married twice.

He said "If you're gonna get in bed with me we have to have a commitment first, and it's gotta be exclusive. No dating anyone else" and I said "OK, It's a deal".

We were nice to each other from the beginning and didn't play head games.

seebs

There have been studies on this; I don't know that I have a citation to hand, but it should be easy enough to check the literature.

Sure.

But I know a lot of kids who were even WORSE off in a divorce situation.

"This was bad" is not the same as "this was worse".

Good call on that last one. I got lucky, my wife's a decent sort, but I know people who have gotten pretty badly burned on marriages.

I just don't think that premarital sex is any kind of cure for this. I think it has essentially no effect.

Maybe I have and maybe I haven't, but this seems to me to be rather distinct from the question under discussion, which is people who are *otherwise compatible* but are having sexual troubles. Which is a very different proposition!

Agreed.

What's insecure got to do with it? There are THREEE BILLION MEN OUT THERE. Some of 'em have got to be better husbands than I am. Probably a fair number of them.

If we think in terms of trying to find the best spouse already existing in the world, we are setting ourselves up for failure. The correct question is not "where can I find the best spouse", but "how can I build the best marriage".

Then I am very glad that you have both been so surprised.

Cool. I guess, I think there's a bit of confusion here; I'm not implying that you're a "bad person", and frankly, it sounds to me like your sex life is at least as appropriate as that of a lot of people with marriage certificates.

I'd say "you're lucky", but as you've pointed out, luck is not the primary factor here. Anyway, I'm very glad that you've found a good relationship. Sounds wonderful.

alek0

Excuse me, not interested in sex is quite relevant for this discussion. Would you be as happy with your wife if she only wanted to have sex with you every couple of months or so?
Would your wife be as happy with you if you couldn't last longer than one minute at most, and couldn't get it up at all if using anything to reduce sensation? I can understand that for some people it doesn't matter all that much, but why can't you understand that for others it matters a lot? Why should one live without sexual satisfaction till the end of one's life? Just because YOU think it doesn't matter all that much?

Also, I would like to see those studies that staying in a bad marriage is better for the kids. My parents had a bad marriage and they eventually divorced. Divorce was a lot better and easier than putting ice on my mother's bruises. When my father would come home after spending evening with his mistress he would beat her black and blue if she dared to ask where he was. When she refused to wash his underwear stained with sperm, he dragged her by the hair to the bathroom and banged her head repeatedly against the wall. Nice thing for 8 year old to see. How can divorce possibly be worse than that? I just wish she didn't wait that long to divorce him, which was mainly because everyone was telling her that stayng together is better for the kids. Yeah, right.