Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Soul Invictus · 07-03-2003, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radcliffe Emerson
Quite correct,the son of god concept, as in god in human form, does not exist in the OT. In fact, I read a q&a session a few weeks ago where someone finally (it seems this was never asked before) asked a rabbi why the Jews did not accept Jesus. The answer was simply: the messianic concept of Jesus as recorded in the NT is NOT of Jewish origin!
Jewish messiahs have never been believed to be divine, they're always just humans that have extra wisdom from god.
In fact, I read that all of the OT prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc were messiahs, and the bible records them as dying. Jesus was not introduced from Jewish origin, therefore they don't accept him.
Also, their legend about the messiah that will deliver them has several aspects.
There will actually be two messiahs, not one. One will be spiritual, and one policital, or social.
Neither of them will be divine, merely extraordinary humans.
And lastly, when they come, they will bring peace to the entire world, WHILE THEY ARE HERE.
That clearly did not happen after Jesus allegedly died.
The concept of eternal hell is not Jewish either, but that's another story.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Radcliffe Emerson ]

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Radcliffe Emerson ]

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Radcliffe Emerson ]</p>

I know this is an old OLD thread Radcliff however, I was wondering if you had sources for all the claims in the rebut. I would very much appreciate it.

Celsus · 07-03-2003, 11:40 PM

Radcliffe's post is from here

I have split the thread accordingly. In the future Soul Invictus, try not to bump old (particularly extremely long threads).

Joel
BC&H Moderator

Radcliffe Emerson · 07-04-2003, 07:15 AM

Most of my information came from a friend of mine who attended seminaries to be ordained as a Methodist minister, and from an interview with a Jewish Rabbi at www.beliefnet.com on why the Jews don't accept Christ as a Messiah.

Javaman · 07-04-2003, 09:39 AM

This probably doesn't belong here but...

So who are the sons of God in Job? Just other dwellers in Heaven? I've always wondered.

Job 1
6 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.

Secular Pinoy · 07-04-2003, 04:34 PM

I'd like to see Magus respond to that.

Doctor X · 07-04-2003, 11:34 PM

Javaman:

Better yet, do not forget the "sons of the gods"--bene elohim--often translated as "sons of God" though elohim is plural--who come down and mate with da wimmenfolk to make a race of heros.

These appear to be remenants of the polytheism. Remember, it is not so much important that you have ONE god, just that YOUR god is better than all of the others! Furthermore, you have the Wandering Band of Masacring Jews attacking a city only to have its king sacrifice to his god Chemosh who then obliges by squishing said attackers. Huh?

Returning to Job . . . stn is represented in a much older form of the myth--a thing that tests--rather than the "Cloven Hoofed Fellow" we all know and sacrifice to [Stop that!--Ed.]

Seriously . . . as myths develop--and theology changes . . . the remnants become reinterpreted. The problem is the texts leaves some problems. Hence, residual noted in the OT regarding child sacrifice. Why is Big Bad Satan visiting Big Daddy in Job? Do they have summits? Why does Big Daddy have to ask where he came from?

Why does Big Daddy have to look for Adam? Why does he say "we" cannot let them become like "us."

So, just like the "sons of the gods" these become "demoted" to angels and demons even though their is little textual evidence to support it. However, it is a natural progression in religions.

--J.D.

Soul Invictus · 07-06-2003, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Celsus
Radcliffe's post is from here

I have split the thread accordingly. In the future Soul Invictus, try not to bump old (particularly extremely long threads).

Joel
BC&H Moderator

HA! I guess that's a Forum faux pas 101! Thanks for the advice!

07-04-2003, 04:34 PM	#5
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	Re: OP I'd like to see Magus respond to that.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-03-2003, 11:40 PM	#2
Celsus Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Singapore Posts: 2,875	Radcliffe's post is from here I have split the thread accordingly. In the future Soul Invictus, try not to bump old (particularly extremely long threads). Joel BC&H Moderator

07-04-2003, 07:15 AM	#3
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	Most of my information came from a friend of mine who attended seminaries to be ordained as a Methodist minister, and from an interview with a Jewish Rabbi at www.beliefnet.com on why the Jews don't accept Christ as a Messiah.

07-04-2003, 09:39 AM	#4
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	This probably doesn't belong here but... So who are the sons of God in Job? Just other dwellers in Heaven? I've always wondered. Job 1 6 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.

07-04-2003, 11:34 PM	#6
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Javaman: Better yet, do not forget the "sons of the gods"--bene elohim--often translated as "sons of God" though elohim is plural--who come down and mate with da wimmenfolk to make a race of heros. These appear to be remenants of the polytheism. Remember, it is not so much important that you have ONE god, just that YOUR god is better than all of the others! Furthermore, you have the Wandering Band of Masacring Jews attacking a city only to have its king sacrifice to his god Chemosh who then obliges by squishing said attackers. Huh? Returning to Job . . . stn is represented in a much older form of the myth--a thing that tests--rather than the "Cloven Hoofed Fellow" we all know and sacrifice to [Stop that!--Ed.] Seriously . . . as myths develop--and theology changes . . . the remnants become reinterpreted. The problem is the texts leaves some problems. Hence, residual noted in the OT regarding child sacrifice. Why is Big Bad Satan visiting Big Daddy in Job? Do they have summits? Why does Big Daddy have to ask where he came from? Why does Big Daddy have to look for Adam? Why does he say "we" cannot let them become like "us." So, just like the "sons of the gods" these become "demoted" to angels and demons even though their is little textual evidence to support it. However, it is a natural progression in religions. --J.D.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.