gilly54

Hi, Galiel,

Well, I'll still pick my fights carefully, so that those chips falling where they may, as you say, are not from my teeth.

I have been in situations where the debate got heated and I truly felt threatened, hence my statement.

And I agree with you, we need more banner wavers such as yourself. Are you going to the DC march? I wish I could.

Gilly

galiel

I will. And much more than that. We all need to wake up and work together for our common interests, or wake up one day to find our rights officially eliminated.

There is this myth that atheists are somehow impossible to organize. That is nonsense. Any group of people who share a common interest and face a common threat can learn to work together to create change. One doesn't have to be a zealot to care about one's rights.

Buffman

Hi galiel,

Perhaps you won't mind amplifying on your positive words and attitude.

There are times when simply being bold is more effective than being careful.

Specifically what do you recommend? Our Founding Fathers elected to start a bloody Revolutionary War to achieve their "political and economic" goals. We had a horrendously bloody war to maintain the "political" concept of a federal union...with religious and non-religious people on both sides slaughtering each other. The Suffregettes, the Prohibitionists, the anti-Prohibitionists, the Race Wars of the 1960's, etc., etc. Then we can consult History to see the extent of the slaughter directly attributed to religious supernaturalism defending its myriad of superstitious beliefs. In my opinion, the concept of Church-State separation was the greatest gift that our Framing Fathers gave to us and the world. How is it that you and I can see this but 85%(?) of our fellow country men can not (Like you [I suspect], I do not believe that it is 85%. I honestly wonder if it is any more than 20-25% who are simply too conditioned to dare think for themselves.) However, after watching and being deeply involved with maintaining a secular America for more than 60 years, I would like to know what you mean by "being bold." I have discovered that if you lack planning, organization, strong leadership, and the means/resources/influence (MONEY) to carry forward with your plan, success in this current age is very much in doubt...unless you are willing to compromise the very principles for which you struggle.

It takes sustained pressure for a steam engine to move a locomotive.

It takes MONEY, resources, and total dedication to build that steam engine (or locomotive). That's all I was attempting to convey with my first post on this string. That is why my second post quickly pointed out that I was merely identifying the primary need and target to accomplish the goal of maintaining, recapturing, a secular America. IMHO, it must start with a national campaign to expose the lies and propaganda being used to condition the psyche of the American public. That takes big MONEY if you are going to get the case before the public using the media...who should have been doing this all along on their own. IMO, the Fourth Estate has been a miserable failure in defending our secular constitutional liberties...at their own peril.

galiel

I don't mind at all. I recommend learning from the civil rights movement, the feminist movement, the gay liberation movement, the fight for disability rights, the struggle for native American rights, for abortion rights, as well as the ongoing struggles for family law reform, animal rights, environmental policy, corporate governance reform (the movement for business ethics), etc. All these were conducted within the framework of our constitutional republic.

Although some were, in some instances, marred by violence, that certainly was not their main feature, nor was that clearly the defining factor. If anything, the closer the struggle to the present day, the less violence is involved with gaining rights.

What is more, in the case of nonbelievers, our constitutional rights are already protected on paper. What we need is an educational campaign, not a violent revolution.

When people understand, they no longer fear. When they no longer fear, they no longer hate.

Gandhi didn't start with a large budget and corporate sponsorship. Neither did Rosa Parks.

Being bold means, first of all, deciding to ACT. Then, it means clearly visualizing a specific objective. Then, it means being utterly commited to achieving that goal. Money, influence, etc., all flow from that. Nothing can resist the power of an idea whose time has come, and no force in the world can resist people united in determination to achieve a common goal.

With respect to all those who have fought the fight before me, but who seem unwilling to take it to the next level, it takes unflagging, unconditional willpower to win. That is all it takes, and it takes ALL of it.

If you look for what you need in order to act, you always have a reason not to act. If you look to cast blame on others for not acting, you always have a reason not to act. If you look at the wall and say, "it's too tough to break through," you will always have an excuse not to take the first swing of the hammer.

The secret to moving the earth is not really in finding a sufficiently long lever. It is not even in knowing the most strategically effective place to put the fulcrum.

The only way to move the Earth is to get together and PUSH.

What I propose specifically, is to ACT. However you can, at whatever level is comfortable to you, in whatever form best suits you. It might be to start weaing a button openly declaring your identity. It might be writing a letter to Congress. It might be talking quietly and off-the-record with your child's history teacher, asking him or her to include prominent freethinkers in the student's study of major historical figures. It might be taking a court case to the Supreme Court. It might be as simple as responding in the supermarket to a stranger wishing you "Merry Christmas" by saying: "Though I do not believe in god and thus do not celebrate religious holidays, I certainly wish you a very Merry Christmas. I hope you keep nonbelievers like me in your thoughts, as we are otherwise excluded from participation in most national celebrations." Most likely, it will be something far more intelligent and innovative than I can come up with at the moment.

The important thing is to DO IT.

At least, IMO.

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: galiel ]</p>

Starspun

Right there! That is the place to start. Let's not make this an us vs. them issue. Make this an eye-opening experience. Remember, we are ALL human. Some can see through the smoke and mirrors better than others. If we can break the psychological mindfuck that has been passed down from generation to generation by religion and it's followers, the stigma of Gawd, Geezus, et al
can be broken and then we can become a driving force in politics.
I think with a solid plan on how we could accomplish this, we could get funding from the Ted Turner's of the world.
Anyone with a degree in marketing? Anyone with solid ideas? I'll post some after I think about it more.

Autonemesis

That's another point that needs to be made. Congress is the one that the 1st amendment restricts. People can still say whichever pledge they want, or no pledge at all. The whole "banning the pledge" line is a gross distortion. It's CONGRESS that has been limited, not from saying the pledge, but from passing a law saying "this is the official pledge: One nation under God".

Buffman

Being bold means, first of all, deciding to ACT. Then, it means clearly visualizing a specific objective. Then, it means being utterly commited to achieving that goal. Money, influence, etc., all flow from that. Nothing can resist the power of an idea whose time has come, and no force in the world can resist people united in determination to achieve a common goal. With respect to all those who have fought the fight before me, but who seem unwilling to take it to the next level, it takes unflagging, unconditional willpower to win. That is all it takes, and it takes ALL of it.

xxxxx I resent the inference that "anyone" is unwilling to take things to any new level....whatever that may be in your vision. You can have all the willpower in the world, but if you lack the qualifications, training and means, you can kiss your ass goodbye if you come up against someone who does have all those things...and the willpower to use them. ( Look at all the posturing that went on by the Taliban before the real, live, bombs started dropping.) Please don't think that I am minimizing a positive attitude, motivational speeches and an iron will. I am not! What I am attempting to explain comes from some very practical and realistic experiences. If you sincerely believe that all it takes to win battles is willpower, then you should have led the Children's Crusade circa 1212 A.D. . They were filled with willpower and died by the tens-of-thousands.

If you look for what you need in order to act, you always have a reason not to act.

Please understand. To me that statement is filled with great sound and fury, but little else. Obviously you seem to believe that many folks here simply lack the kind of motivation it takes to overcome every problem situation. Would that that were the case and all that we required was motivation to reverse this long term trend of religious craziness. (It has been around for 2,000 years and hasn't been stopped yet.) You seem to believe that right is might and always wins. I have not found that to be the case. (Just look at religion.) Additionally, given that God is only on the side of the Christian fundamentalists, at least in their minds, why do they need to involve themselves with material and practical things that we believe are so important and precious to us? Why not let their supernatural, all powerful, space being do everything for them? Why do the fundamentalist Muslims hate the Jews and attack America? Why does western society scare them if Allah (PBUH) is on their side? All they needed to do was tell Allah (PBUH) to make the WTC fall down and it would. If you stop to consider the willpower that those men demonstrated, then you might begin to appreciate that when you take on fundamentalist religious believers you are taking on people whose willpower is heightened by the vision of death in a "Holy" cause. Is that sufficient reason not to take them on. Of course not! However, IMHO, it will take far more than merely willpower to reverse this current trend.

If you look to cast blame on others for not acting, you always have a reason not to act. If you look at the wall and say, "it's too tough to break through," you will always have an excuse not to take the first swing of the hammer.

Where did you "purchase" (steal) the hammer? Do you think that the fundamentalist attack on the wall of separation between Church and State is only based on willpower? They purchased, and stole, many hammers. Look around at your local school boards, your state legislatures, Govenorships, Congress, the administration...and worst of all the conservative leaning Supreme Court. Do you sincerely believe that those results came about merely through willpower. I don't think so!

The secret to moving the earth is not really in finding a sufficiently long lever. It is not even in knowing the most strategically effective place to put the fulcrum.

That sounds good until you actually try to move the earth...for real.

What I propose specifically, is to ACT. However you can, at whatever level is comfortable to you, in whatever form best suits you. It might be to start weaing a button openly declaring your identity. It might be writing a letter to Congress. It might be talking quietly and off-the-record with your child's history teacher, asking him or her to include prominent freethinkers in the student's study of major historical figures. It might be taking a court case to the Supreme Court. It might be as simple as responding in the supermarket to a stranger wishing you "Merry Christmas" by saying: "Though I do not believe in god and thus do not celebrate religious holidays, I certainly wish you a very Merry Christmas. I hope you keep nonbelievers like me in your thoughts, as we are otherwise excluded from participation in most national celebrations." Most likely, it will be something far more intelligent and innovative than I can come up with at the moment.
The important thing is to DO IT.

May I inquire what makes you think that folks haven't been doing that...the ones that can. You can't take a case all the way to the Supreme Court unless you can "afford" to do so. When your Christian fundamentalist boss wishes you a Merry Christmas next time, and you are married, with children and a mortgage, by all means tell him that you are an atheist and that he is treating you as a second class citizen. "JUST DO IT!" All it takes is willpower...and a financial suicide wish....unless you are fortunate enough to be financially independent. One of the special strengths of atheists is their ability to accept responsibility for themselves. However, more often than not, they have additional responsibilities that must be considered.

True Believers have been conditioned to view the world in black and white, right and wrong, good or evil. Non-Believers are more inclined to view the world as a rainbow. Perhaps that is an atheist weakness in a war for survival. And believe me, the Christian fundamentalists have declared war on all that "they" consider to be evil. Are you ready to openly admit that you are at war with them...and willing to go to whatever lengths it takes to defeat them? I think not! We are fighting for the principles that undergird our Constitution....Church-State separation and a secular government. We also stand for fact over fiction. But is that enough to win the war. Hell NO! Having a motivational speech as the basis of action is just fine if there is a practical means of implementing the actions that will lead to success.

At least, IMO.

And that's one of the beauties of critical thinking. It represents individual, rather than collective, thought. For me, that was always one of the true American strengths. Multicultural, pluralistic, input before action. Not immediate, single-minded, "followmeism."

At least, IMO.

Starspun:

I agree with you. We must fight the fictions with the facts. The problem is getting access to enough of the general public so they can hear and weigh these facts before the "knee jerk" battalions can drown the facts with more fictions.

Starspun

I think a deconversion of the masses is unrealistic. With time and finances, it is possible, but, we should have a foundation to start from. A good foundation is the separation issue.
It seems people don't think about the issue and just go with whatever is placed before them. As unfortunate as this is, it could work to our advantage. What would be realistic? How about an association between our government's religious activities with those of the Taliban? Would that make people take a second look at the importance of separation of church and state?
The government has already spent millions on it's propaganda against the Taliban. Most American's see them as an intolerable, religious organization that took freedom's from people in the name of their Gawd. This could work to our advantage due to the multitude of religions this country harbors.
Non-theists make up a small percentage of the US population, right? Now, if non-theists and all non xtians were to take a stand, we would be a huge political force with enough clout and voices to be heard. Even with the knee-jerk, fundy reactionaries throwing up red flags.
It's all in the spin. With literature and propaganda (marketing), many of the other religious organizations would see the importance of the separation issue due to the fact that our leaders are xtian fundies that are seemingly hell bent on converting all the masses to their ideals and faith beliefs. Most of the other religions will not be able to muster enough support to be a viable political force that could 'take over' government. By using a scare tactic in line with what McCarthy did in the 50's, they could be persuaded that their beliefs are in the cross hairs and they must take a stand now. A stand that would preferably end up with a constitutional amendment that clearly defines separation of church and state while handing down penalties for public officials that cross the line.
What do you all think? Would this be the place to start? Would this be the correct way to proceed?

[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: Starspun ]</p>

Jobar

w.e.w.-
"*Runs off to find out Ingersoll's birthday...*"

Aug. 11. I have this nifty "Humanists, Heathens & Heretics" calendar from the Council for Secular Humanism...

And, not coincidentally, that is the weekend we are going to <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=44&t=000928" target="_blank">gather in Las Vegas.</a>

[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: Jobar ]

[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: Jobar ]</p>

David Bowden

Perfect timing. Wish I could be in Nevada (how often do I wish that?)

Darwin Day is Feb 12, I think. If we can find a May and a November atheist/agnostic, then we'll have Skeptics for all Seasons.

-Wanderer