luvluv

DRF:

"I think s/he means that throwing insults is a sign of not being able to come up with justification of position. Which is ironic, coming from luvluv."

When have I ever insulted anyone?

Typhon

Only our collective intelligence Luvluv. -

Ahem, actually, I believe DRF was referring to your frequent inability (or choice not to, I don't know which) defend (justify) your position and shirk the many thorny issues raised peripheral to the original main point of the thread.

Now, back to my own laborious task of teeth-pulling (and trust me, if you would ANSWER things rather than just gloss over them, I wouldn't need to wade through 3 page replies either)…

Typhon sez:
I say your defense by faith is meaningless, and worse still, disingenuous on your part, if you think a retreat to such a position of evidence less, poorly defined faith, is a fit defense for your ludicrous religion.

I'm glad that you are more coherent than (shudder) Walrus or Amos (monozygotic twins separated at birth perhaps?), and not as belligerent as DNAunion, nor do I think you're just trolling (like I half suspect Half-Life of), BUT…and it's as big a but as any found on the hiney of hippopotamus, you have a nasty habit of wiggling away from straightforward committal to an argument as any I've yet seen here on the board.

Crowing that you've "won" when all you've done is show that you don't appear at least to have a firm grasp on the subject, leaves a bad taste behind. Your theology is a bit weird as well, which may be throwing me, as I keep expecting canonical answers to canonical points, which you do not deliver, despite claiming to be a Bible believing Christian.

.T.

[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

luvluv

Typhon, might I gently remind you that the last time you accused me of backing away from an argument, I had actually been answering your very objection for SEVERAL pages, and it was YOU who had ignored them. This, might I remind you, is why we are now having this conversation on faith: because YOU did not read my (frequent) response, not because I did not provide it. Don't make me cut and paste on you, home-slice.

"So what then, do you define faith as? Did you, as I asked before, just wake up one day, with no prior exposure to any theists teachings, with no contact/reason, personal or external, to a god like entity, and just decide, that your hypothetical god did exist?"

It's a bit unfair with me. As I've said before, as far as I know I have believed in God since birth (or since I heard of Him, I guess). I cannot recall ever not believing. But again, that is not a rare occurance.

"If you have managed to "detect" god, you should be apply to apply the scientific method to that detection process."

How can I apply the scientific method to detect something that we already conceeded is undetectable by science? Are you saying my detection of the unscientifically dectable is scientifically detectable? I don't think it is, I communicate with God in my mind, the contents of which we have already agreed are undetectable. I don't claim to hear from God everyday, but when I do hear from Him I don't know of any scientific experiment which would allow me to verify whether the thoughts were my own or whether they came from God.

But again, this is an empiricist mentality. Firstly, I am not a scientist. I don't verify anything I do scientifically. I am a person whose being is grounded in relationships with other persons. I consider the relationship (with myself, God, and others) to be the ultimate ground of being, not science. Just as I am not inclined to "scientifically" dissect my love for my mother or my brothers or my girlfriend (sigh, if I had one), so I am not inclined to "dissect" my relationship with God. I trust Him, He provides for me, we give love to each other, and we are happy in the exchange. I have no real motive to dissect something I am so throroughly enjoying. It would be like me asking you, the minute you had fallen in love, to construct an elaborate experiment to "prove" your love, rather than to spend time with the person you had fallen in love with. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

So the answer to your questions are 1)I don't think it is possible to know whether the means by which I detect God are scientifically examinable and 2)I have no desire to examine them scientifically.

I do have mounds of what could be considered circumstantial evidence in the form of answered prayer, but you would just be having to take my word for it over the internet. But generally speaking God answers my prayers physcially and verifiably, though generally not immediately. I am disinclined to go through all of them on the internet because I would

In addition, the period of the greatest joy of my life was my period of initial conversion. I have never been happier before or since. It was an extended period of rapture, I felt great pleasure in being alone with God and staring at the sky. I was inexplicably joyous for a period of a couple of months, and I'm consistenly happier as a commited Christian than I was before.

Additionally, and perhaps as something that can answer your initial question about applying scientific methods to my detection of God; I am continually amazed at the similarity between my experience and the experience of other Christians. We all have a common conception of what God is "like". Very often when I am in the presence of other Christians we laugh or weep or experience the same emotional response when someone tells an anectdote about something sweet or good or funny God has done. There is a common experience in our laughter which is something akin to people discussing something a common friend has done. We say "that is so just like Him". The God we are all describing as Christians is (at least on a personal level) the same person. He has the same characteristics and the same methods. (I say personally and not politically. It has been my experience that when people reference God to political gains, those references have the least credibilty. They have the least "recognition" from other Christians, whereas the personal has a greater degree of recognition.)

"What has led you to think that these "detections" are not just delusions, biased wishing on your part, or simply, pure error?"

Well, it was not wishing because at the time I did not wish it. I was depressed when I called out to God, but I just wanted Him to help me end my depression. I did not want to be a committed Christian. He did deliver me from my depression, which made me feel a sense of obligation to Him, but I still did not commit to Him. Following that, I went into an even greater bout of depression during which I read and learned and studied about God. The more I learned about Him the more I loved Him and learned that I could be a Christian and still stay my lovable, sweet, superfly self. But at the time when I called out to Him to help me out of my depression, the momment when I first made contact with Him, I did not really want the relationship with Him. At that time, I would have been much happier if He would have just got me out of my depression and then left me alone. And the whole wish fullfilment argument is kind of bogus because very often I do not wish to be doing the kind of things God tells me to do (being celibate in this society is not a cakewalk).

Hondo

Luvluv

The following reminds me of the time I watched Bin Laden and his cronies laughing and jesting about Allah and their wonderful exploits at the world trade centers on behalf of their beloved Allah.

Originally posted by Luvluv

Hondo

ex-preacher

I do not share Hondo's reaction, nor do I think it relevant or in good taste.

I appreciate your sharing of your testimony. It helps me understand where you're coming from. As I think you realize, most of us skeptic-types come at things from a very different angle. Sure we have feelings and relationships, but we tend to be much more critical and objective. The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (a personality instrument) would probably show that you are a "feeler" while we score as "thinkers." It reminds me of the many fruitless conversations I've had with my Mom. She feels God, but I can't find any evidence of him. She thinks I lost my faith due to depression (which I don't have) or a brain tumor (which I don't think I have).

Your story does make wonder about why you're here. Why are you here? (at this board)

MadMordigan

Just as I am not inclined to "scientifically" dissect my love for my mother or my brothers or my girlfriend (sigh, if I had one), so I am not inclined to "dissect" my relationship with God. I trust Him, He provides for me, we give love to each other, and we are happy in the exchange. I have no real motive to dissect something I am so throroughly enjoying.

This is transparent equivocation. I do not doubt that you have a realtionship with a construct in your own mind. I simple doubt that that construct has any reality ouside your own mind.

It would be like me asking you, the minute you had fallen in love, to construct an elaborate experiment to "prove" your love, rather than to spend time with the person you had fallen in love with.

Again, equivocation. While it may be difficult to 'prove' my love for another person, it would be TRIVIAL to prove the existance of this other person. I couldn't care less to have your 'love for god' proven. I'm waiting to show that he exists. Until then, I will treat a reported relationship with such a being the same way I treat the relationship between a person and his imaginary girlfriend.

[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: MadMordigan ]</p>

Pomp

MadMordigan,

Until then, I will treat a reported relationship with such a being the same way I treat the relationship between a person and his imaginary girlfriend.

I think we have the makings of a sitcom here. Too bad no network in the world would pick it up.

Edit: To clarify, I mean that the sitcom would be about a believer and his imaginary friend "God." I'm sure that we could sell a sitcom abouy an imaginary girlfriend in two seconds flat.

[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: Pompous Bastard ]</p>

Boro Nut

I hate to break this to you, but we all have little voices in our heads. When I read your note I actually hear it internally. Either I have god as my PA, or its an internal function of the human brain. Why not test your little internal brain god with a few predicitions. You can quite scientifically pick any number of horses in any number of races and see how godlike it turns out to be.

Boro Nut

brighid

luvluv,

According to your God (and your belief system) do other Gods and Goddesses exist?

Brighid

babelfish

My husband and I recently did that Myers-Briggs thing on the internet just out of curiosity, and it showed me as being a "feeler" rather than a "thinker." Which gives me hope for all those other "feelers" out there who just "feel" God working in their lives, that despite their innate tendencies there is still hope for the triumph of their rational minds.