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Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: :noitacoL
Posts: 56
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Responding to this "Proof-of-Christ" message
The following wasn't addressed to me, but I would certainly like to respond to it. It seems that some of this message was copy/pasted from a website (if you recognize it, please let me know!) and since the historicity of Jesus Christ isn't my most comfortable subject, I'd really appreciate your comments. Thanks, and have a nice day 
Quote:
1. They are composed of eye witness accounts to Jesus Christ. By several eye witnesses to Christ.
2. When were these 25 books of eye witness accounts composed?
The Gospels Matthew, Mark, and Luke were each written within 20 years after Christs death. Dr. John A. T. Robinson states that the Gospel of Matthew was written as early as A.D. 40, within eight years of Christ.
Dr. Hiebert, Dr. Harrison, and Dr. Harnak, Dr. T.W. Manson all date Pauls letters, Peters Epistles, and to 50-66 A.D.
In regards to Paul Dr. Kevan writes
" There is unimpeachable evidence of the contemporary letters of Paul the Apostle. These epistles constitute historical evidence of the highest kind. The letters addressed to the Galations, the Corinthians, and the Romans, about the authenticity and date of which there is very little dispute, belong to the time of Paul's missionary journeys, and may be dated in the period of 55-58. This brings the evidence of the resurrection of Christ still nearer to the event: the interval is the short span of twenty years. "
John, was an apostle of Jesus, and ate with him, lived with him, and studies under him. Johns disciple Clement of Alexandria which we have several extra biblical documents of attested to the Biblical account of Johns banishment to the Island of Patmos, where in A.D. 95-100 he wrote his eye witness account of Jesus, and The revelation. He was banished to Patmos under The Emperor Domitian, this is also confirmed by Eusibus, a great historian.
We have several points to make.
1. The 25 books, containing several eye witness accounts, all written at an early date after Christs Death. This is vital to their testimony. What I want to do, is affirm, to you, their accuracy, in a comparison mode. Here are the top books of antiquity, and here are the statistics that back their authenticity:
1. Caesar written 100-44 BC, earliest copy 900 AD, that is 1, 000 years after it was written!!!! and the number of copies we have are 10
2. Livy written 59 BC-AD 17 ealiest copy 900 AD, 1100 years after is was written! copies = 7
3. Aristotle, now everyone uses Aristotles work! writted 384 BC, the earliest copy is 1100 AD Thats 1400 years after it was written!!!!!!!! Their are 49 copies of it
4. Plato, come on, who questions platos work!? His was written 427 BC and the earliest copy was 900 AD 1300 years after it was written man! Thats insane and there are only 7 copies!!!!!! Yet no one questions his writtings!!!!!!!
5. Sophocles 496 BC it was written and the earliest copy was 1000 AD thats 1400 years! 193 copies. Thats allot of copies! I mean that has allot of backing, but still 1400 years, allot of time eh!?
6. Catullus 54 bc it was written and the earliest copy is 1500 AD thats 1600 years after! And this guy gets tought in schools ! there are 3 copies.
I can go on and on. But these are the absolute top writtings of antiquity, the absolute highest ( next to the bible ) is Homer's Illiad. You read that right!? Everyone has. It blows all the other works of antiquity away. Look at these stats man!
written 900 BC, the earliest copy is 400 BC. Only 500 years. Thats pretty close compared to other works of antiquity dont you think!? And its authentic, look it has 643 copies! Thats got allot of backing!!!!!! Very authentic. Again aside from the new testiment this is the most backed work of antiquity!
Get ready ! Now you will see why the new testiment has more backing then any other book of antiquity! guess what? It was written from 40 A.D. to 100 AD( John on Patmos ), Guess when our earliest copy is!?? Ill let you think about it....
The earliest manuscript, get ready! Is 125 AD! Only 25 years after the new testiment was finished! Now how many copies. I mean homer has 643 copies! And its the most backed book of antiquity aside from the new testiment? It is more than 643, and its more than 1, 000 and its more than 2, 000 and its more than 10, 000! In fact, hold your breath! Its a total of over 24, 000 copies!!!!!!!!!!!!
You heard right, 24, 000 copies! All matching eachother from the first!
Did you know, that if we threw away every single new testiment bible in the world. That we could reconstruct the whole new testiment down to 11 verses!? Over the first 2 centuries the early church fathers would send letters, in which they would quote books of the new testiment. They did this so frequently, and there are so many of these preserved over the first 2 centuries that the whole new testiment can be recontructed! We have over 86, 000 quotations of the new testiment writtings. Thats over 110, 000 documents which affirm the accuracy of the text.,
To discredit the new testiment would be to throw out every work of antiquity in existance! There is no past writting with more backing, and here are a few quotes Im going to copy for you!
Therefore the first two factors have been covered. Which are, and early date, and the uncannily, essentially miraculous backing that the words of the eye witness accounts to Jesus Christ, have been preserved.
The next aspect is to discuss the Historicity of the Bible.
Old School covered this excellently. One of the most incredible aspect of the New Testiment, is that it is actually very testible in this manner. Luke made this statement in his book of Acts:
1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs , being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God
It is vital, that many of these proofs can be historically tested. I can, and in the future will discuss, an amazing, huge and extensive list of the Historical confirmation of every testible event in the new testiment. Luke for example, has been credided, as one of the greatest historians of all time. Simply because he meticulously recorded facts. Including Goverment officials, peoples, customs, dates, times, and places.
As far as some of the Archaology, Old School has discussed this in the past, I'll paste his response, which only touches on the subject
Some of the Archeological evidence for Scripture's accuracy:
a. Hittite civilization (Genesis 15:20) discovered in 1906
b. Quirinius Governor of Syria (Luke 2:1-3) confirmed as a double duty by coin
c. Correct titles of government praetor, proconsul, first man, politarchs (Lukes writings)
d. John alone mentions The Pool of Bethesda (John 5:1-15), it was found as described
e. The walls of Jericho (Joshua 6) with the exception of part of the Northern wall - Rahabs
house??? (Heb. 11:30-31) - found in 1950. They were burned and fallen from the inside out.
f. Census taking in first century (Gospels) method of family counting used is accurate
g. Pilate the Governors (John 19) existence confirmed by inscription found in 1961
h. Jesus; direction of travel (Mark 7:31) probable route through mountains makes sense
i. Daniel accurately recorded Belshazzars position (5:16) as co-regent
j. Nazareths existence (John 1:46) confirmed by family lists and tombs in vicinity 1962
k. Method of crucifixion confirmed in 1968
l. The method and fact of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19) verified
m. Lysanius the Tetrarch (Luke 3:1) confirmed as correct name for that time period
n. John alone mentions the Pool of Siloam (John 9:7) found as described
o. Jacobs Well (John 4:12) found as described
p. Cities of Lycaonia included Iconium (Acts 14:6) confirmed as correct
q. Erastus the city treasurer (Romans 16:23) inscription found in Corinth in 1929
r. Ecclessia meeting in theater (Acts 19:23) found
s. The proper title meris; used of Philippi of Macedonia
t. Jesus probable home unearthed in Capernaum (Mark 1:29-34)
u. Millstones (Luke 17:2) unearthed in Capernaum
v. First century Galilean boat found to hold crew of 13 1986
w. John (3:23) correctly identifies John the Baptist as being in Aeno
x. John (2:1) distinguishes the two Canas, and the two Bethanys (1:28; 11:18)
y. John (4:5-6) specifies the city of Sychar in Samaria where Jacobs well is found.
z. Evidence has also been found for the Tower of Babel and the confusion of languages
a. The method and destruction of the city of Tyre is 100% accurate (Ezekial 26)
b. Christ was tried by Pilate in the "Gabbatha" (or pavement) found (John 19:13)
c. Personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine "Canaan" "tehom"(Ebla)
d. In 1977 an inscription mentioning Dan was found near the high place (1 Kings 12:28-29)
e. The Mesha Inscription found in Jordan mentions the tribe of Gad (Joshua 13:24-28)
f. The Babylonians recorded the fall of the "city of JUDAH" to Nebuchadnezzar in 597 BC
g. The palace at Jericho where Eglon, king of Moab, was assassinated by Ehud .
h. The east gate of Shechem where the forces of Abimelech approached the city found
i. The Temple of Baal/El-Berith in Shechem,
j. The pool of Gibeon where the forces of David and Ishbosheth fought found
k. The royal palace at Samaria where the kings of Israel lived
l. The Pool of Samaria where King Ahab's chariot was washed after his death found
m. The water tunnel beneath Jerusalem dug by King Hezekiah during the Assyrian siege found
n. The royal palace in Babylon where King Belshazzar held the feast
o. The royal palace in Susa where Esther was queen of the Persian king Xerxes found
p. The royal gate at Susa where Mordecai, Esther's cousin, sat found
q. The Square in front of the royal gate at Susa where Mordecai met with Halthach found
r. The foundation of the synagogue at Capernaum where Jesus cured a man with an unclean spirit
and delivered the sermon on the bread of life .
s. The house of Peter where Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law and others found
t. The tribunal at Corinth where Paul was tried found
u. The theater at Ephesus where the riot of silversmiths occurred found
v. Herod's palace at Caesarea where Paul was kept under guard found
w. Graves of Caiaphas the High Priest (John 18:13), Caesar Augustus (Luke 2:1-7), Cyrus the
Great (Isaiah 45), Darius-I the Great (Ezra 6) known
x. The cave of the Patriarchs (Sarah, Abraham, Isaac, Rebekah, Leah and Jacob) known
y. Grave of David and Solomon known
z. Grave of Uzziah (an inscription was found on the Mount of Olives in 1931 which reads, "Here
were brought the bones of Uzziah, King of Judah - do not open."...evidently because of leprosy)
And to add some details...
Joshuas conquest of the Promised Land
Critics of the Bible have claimed for decades that the Bible's statements in Joshua about the conquest of the Promised Land in the centuries before the monarchy of King David were pure fiction. In light of this new archeological evidence critics will be forced to relinquish their rejection of the Bible's record of Israel's conquest as stated by Joshua. In the book of Joshua (6:5), God told Joshua, When you hear them sound a long blast on the trumpets, have all the people give a loud shout; then the wall of the city will collapse and the people will go up, every man straight in." Even this miracle is confirmed by archaeology. Professor John Garstang found and recorded his amazing finding, ;there remains no doubt: the walls fell outwards so completely that the attackers would be able to clamber up and over the ruins into the city.; The evidence from all other archaeological digs around ancient cities in the Middle East reveal that the walls of cities always fall inwards as invading armies push their way into the city.
(To read more, refer to John Garstang and J.B.E. Garstang, The Story of Jericho, London: Hodder & Stoughton Ltd, 1940 page 172.)
Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah
(Gen 19:24-29 NIV) Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities--and also the vegetation in the land. But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace. So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is one of the most memorable stories in the Bible. According to the Bible, the inhabitants of these two cities were so wicked (Gen 18:20, 19:1-13) that God supernaturally destroyed them. For many years, historians regard this as a fairy tale.
We know from the Bible that Sodom and Gomorrah were located in the Valley of Siddim (Gen 14:3), a known name for the Dead Sea. In 1973 Walter Rast and Thomas Schaub began to excavate a site known as Bab edh-Dhra, which it located in this area (on the eastern shore of Transjordan across from the Lisan peninsular). They found remains of a heavily fortified and large community. Another thing caught the attention of excavators: the evidence of extensive destruction by fire. The townsite was covered by a layer of ash many feet in thickness. Many dead bodies were found inside buildings. The archeologists also found that the fire did not start from inside the building (as would be the case of an earthquake) but in every case started on the roof of the building, then the roof burned through, collapsed into the interior and then the fire spread inside the building. Archeologists have no explanation for this but the Bible does. The Bible talks about Gods destruction of these cities because of their sin and speaks of God raining fire and brimstone down on these cities from heaven.
(For a published report of these excavations, see W.E. Rast and R.T. Schaub, Survey of the Southeastern Plain of the Dead Sea,Annual of the Department of Antiquities of Jordan 19:5-54, 175-85.)
Historicity of numerous kings mentioned in the Bible
Only fifty years ago many disbelieving scholars totally rejected the historical accuracy of the Bible because they claimed that the Scriptures talked about numerous kings and individuals that could not be confirmed from any other historical or archeological records. Recent discoveries have proven these critics wrong. Discoveries have been found referring to King David, Solomon, Uzziah, Hezekiah and many others.
Recent archeological investigations have demolished the position of those who rejected the biblical account of Israel's kings such as King David. In 1993, archeologists digging at Tel Dan in the Galilee in northern Israel found a fragment of a stone inscription that clearly refers to the "house of David" and identifies David as the "king of Israel." This is the first inscription outside the Bible that confirms the Bible's statement that David was the king of Israel in the ninth century before Christ.
A stone inscription from Egypt confirms that Israel was established as a nation in Canaan centuries before the reign of King David, just as the Bible claims. The Merneptah Stela is a seven-and-a-half-foot-high stone inscription discovered in the temple of Pharaoh Merneptah at Thebes in Egypt. Scholars determined that Pharaoh Merneptah ruled Egypt from 1213 to 1203 B.C. and confirmed that he launched an invasion into the area of the modern-day West Bank in Canaan, defeating the Jewish inhabitants of the land. The second line from the bottom of this inscriptions boasts, "Israel is laid waste; his seed is not."
In addition to the archeological evidence for King David, we now have confirmation of other kings of Israel. The name of Omri, king of Israel, is recorded on an inscription known as the Stela of King Mesha of Moab. In addition, Omri's name appears on the rock inscriptions of three kings of Assyria, the annals of both Tiglath-Pileser III and Sargon II, and the Black Obelisk of King Shalmaneser III, who wrote, "I conquered . . . all of the Land of Omri (Israel)." Other Assyrian inscriptions found in Nineveh confirm the Bible's records about these kings of Israel: Ahab, Jehu, Joash, Menehem, Pekah, and Hoshea. In addition, the names of many of the kings of the southern kingdom of Judah are also recorded on inscriptions of the nations that fought against the Jews. The inscriptions found by archeologists also confirm the names of these kings of Judah: Ahaziah, Uzziah, Ahaz, Hezekiah, Manasseh, and Jehoiachin. Scholars found ration records of the army of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon (606 to 562 B.C.) that state, "ten sila of oil to Jehoiachin, king of Judah. . . ." Obviously, the fact that these foreign nations listed the kings of Israel and Judah provides the strongest evidence confirming the accuracy of the Word of God.
Historicity of other Biblical Personalities
One of the most interesting discoveries in recent years was the finding of two bull', or clay seals, that bear the impression of the actual seal used by Baruch, the scribe of Jeremiah the prophet who transcribed the Book of Jeremiah. Both bull' bear the inscription, "Belonging to Berekhyahu, son of Neriyahu, the Scribe." One of these clay seals is on view in the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. However, the second bull' was found in Jerusalem earlier in this century and purchased by collector Shlomo Moussaieff of London who owns the greatest private collection of ancient Jewish inscriptions in the world. This second clay seal, bearing the same inscription, also reveals a fingerprint that probably belonged to Baruch.
At the beginning of this century a fascinating seal was discovered in Israel that bore an inscription of a beautiful lion and the words, "Belonging to Shema servant of Jeroboam." This amazing find indicates that it belonged to an official of King Jeroboam of Israel. Other seals have been discovered confirming the biblical records about King Uzziah (777 to 736 B.C.) and King Hezekiah (726 to 697 B.C.).
Another important seal found in Jerusalem dates from the seventh century before Christ and is inscribed as follows: "Belonging to Abdi Servant of Hoshea." This seal made of orange chalcedony, used to authenticate royal documents for security, belonged to Abdi, a high official of King Hosea, the last king of the northern kingdom of Israel before it was conquered by the Assyrian Empire in 721 B.C. Another large seal on red limestone was found bearing the inscription "Belonging to Asayahu, servant of the king"˙together with a galloping horse. The name "Asaiah" is a short form of the name "Asayahu."˙This name occurs twice in the Old Testament in connection with the title "servant of the king." In 2 Chronicles 34:20 we find the name, "Asaiah a servant of the king's" and again in 2 Kings 22:12, "Asahiah a servant of the king's." It is possible that this seal was owned by "Asaiah, the servant of the king" a high court official who was sent by King Josiah to carefully examine the scroll of the lost Book of Deuteronomy that was found in the Temple by the High Priest Hilkiah in approximately 622 B.C.
Explorers in Iraq in the last century found the ancient inscribed clay cylinder bearing the actual decree of King Cyrus of Persia allowing the various captured natives of many different nations to return freely to their ancient homelands. It was the government policy of the preceding Babylonian Empire of King Nebuchadnezzar to displace whole peoples such as the Jews and resettle them in the far reaches of their empire. However, King Cyrus of Persia, a moderate and God-fearing monarch, reversed the cruel Babylonian policy. Immediately after conquering the Babylonian Empire, King Cyrus issued a decree allowing the Jews to freely return to their homeland in Israel ending the seventy-year-long captivity. The decree of King Cyrus began with these words, "I am Cyrus, king of the world, great king." After describing his conquests and deeds, the cylinder inscription reads, "I gathered all their former inhabitants and returned to them their habitations." In this incredible discovery we find the confirmation of one of the most astonishing events in the pages of Scripture. "Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the Lord God of Israel, he is the God, which is in Jerusalem" (Ezra 1:1-3).
The Archeological Evidence of the New Testament
The English scholar, William Ramsay, traveled as a young man to Asia Minor over a century ago for the sole purpose of disproving the Bible's history as described by Luke in his Gospel and in the Book of Acts. Ramsay and his professors were convinced that the New Testament record must be terribly inaccurate. He believed that Luke could not be correct in his history of Christ or in his account about the growth of the Church during the first decades following Christ. Dr. Ramsay began to dig in the ancient ruins of sites throughout Greece and Asia Minor, searching for ancient names, boundary markers, and other archeological finds that would conclusively prove that Luke had invented his history of Christ and His Church. To his amazement and dismay, William Ramsay discovered that the statements of the New Testament Scriptures were accurate in the smallest detail. Finally, Dr. Ramsay was convinced by the overwhelming evidence proving the Bible's accuracy. As a result, he accepted Jesus Christ as His personal Savior. He became both a Christian and a great biblical scholar. As a result of his conversion to belief in Jesus Christ, Sir William Ramsay's books became classics in the study of the history of the New Testament. Another great scholar, A. N. Sherwin-White, was a great classical historical scholar at Oxford University who studied the extensive evidence for and against the historical accuracy of the Book of Acts. Sherwin-White wrote his conclusion after studying the evidence, "For Acts the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming . . . any attempt to reject its basic historicity even in matters of detail must now appear absurd" (Quoted by Rubel Shelley, Prepare To Answer [Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1990]).
Dr. William F. Albright was unquestionably one of the world's most brilliant biblical archeologists. In 1955 he wrote: "We can already say emphatically that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the New Testament after circa A.D. 80." However, additional discoveries over the next decade convinced him that all the books in the New Testament were written "probably sometime between circa A.D. 50 and 75." Significantly, Albright concluded that the writing of the New Testament within a few years of the events it described made it almost impossible that errors or exaggeration could have entered the text. He wrote that the duration between the events of Christ's life and the writing was "too slight to permit any appreciable corruption of the essential center and even of the specific wording of the sayings of Jesus." In other words, Professor Albright, one of the greatest minds in the field of archeology and ancient texts, concluded that the New Testament records the truth about Jesus Christ and his statements.
Dr. John A. T. Robinson was a distinguished lecturer at Trinity College, Cambridge and developed a reputation as a great scholar. Naturally, he accepted the academic consensus universally held since 1900, that denied the disciples and Paul wrote the New Testament and concluded that it was written up to a hundred years after Christ. However, an article in Time magazine, March 21, 1977, reported that Robinson decided to personally investigate for himself the arguments behind this scholarly consensus against the New Testament's reliability because he realized that very little original research had been completed in this field in this century. He was shocked to discover that much of past scholarship against the New Testament was untenable because it was based on a "tyranny of unexamined assumptions" and what he felt must have been an "almost willful blindness." To the amazement of his university colleagues, Robinson concluded that the apostles must have been the genuine writers of the New Testament books in the years prior to A.D. 64. He challenged other scholars to complete original research necessary to truly examine the question fairly. As a result of such a new analysis Robinson believed that it would necessitate "the rewriting of many introductions to-and ultimately, theologies of-the New Testament." Robinson's book, Redating the New Testament, published in 1976, suggests that Matthew's Gospel was written as early as A.D. 40, within eight years of Christ.
Archeology has been continually proving the New Testament to be a reliable source of history. Many people, places and customs spoken of in the New Testament has now been confirmed to be true.
For example, the pool of Bethesda described in John 5:2 has been located in the north_east quarter of the old city of Jerusalem called Betheza.
The fact that Gallio was proconsul of Archaia as stated in Acts 18:12 has been proven correct through inscriptions found.
In 1968 the first physical evidence of crucifixion as a form of punishment was found when archeologist discovered heel bones still tranfixed by an iron nail.
That is just a start. But we'll be glad to get more into it latter
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04-23-2003, 09:01 AM
