Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Viti · 03-14-2003, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Kally
If they don't get a hit on the M they will keep right on going real fast. Maybe it's a J or a B, until someone says "Oh that's my uncle!" haha

Yes! I also have the automatic "out" of "Perhaps this person has not entered your life yet, please just keep this in your head for this will be an important meeting for you"

Nowhere357 · 03-14-2003, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim
Just wondering what you guys think about Psyhic Abilities. I had read a few posts before from others who don't seems to accept that such abilities could exist.

Again ... just wondering, nothing much.

Thank you beforehand.

Miscommunication. Slippery words, few definitions. Saraphim is just exploring, and I don't think his eyes are closed. For sure invective does't help.
I think the basic skeptic position is "the natural universe is all that exists", and the word supernatural means things that don't exist, and psycics are supernatural (so they don't exist). HOWEVER a newcomer might think more like " the natural universe is the physical universe", and the word supernatural means weird powers and stuff, that may or may not exist.

For example, Seraphim tried to show (I think) with the yellow car and screwdriver, that the supposed psycic ability (spookieness) had a perfectly natural explanation. He holds the skeptic view!

Anyway, the psycic ability that impresses me the most, is the "hunters sense". Don't stare at the target, hair on the back of the neck, you can tell when you're being stared at. Usually it can be explained as sub-conscious cues, I guess.

We need evidence, and for that we need tests, so it would help if we had an idea of what to look for. So it's okay to think about psycic stuff. Doing so doesn't mean you "believe in the supernatural". (For rookie non-phd explorers everywhere.)

Ensign Steve · 03-14-2003, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim
by Lobstrosity

He's commenting on the fact that you don't that coincidences can happen randomly. Seeing a yellow car while owning a yellow screwdriver is a coincidence. According to your beliefs, this was clearly not a random occurance. Here, allow me to make an argument for why coincidences cleary can be the product of purely random chance:

First of all, it should be echidna who supposed to be telling me all this crap, not you ... unless you end up as his lawyer or somekind of lapdog for him.

Second of all, I never claimed anything. He asked a stupid question and I had entertained that stupid question with a stupid answer. If the two of you want to make some sort of stupid reveation out of it, fine by me.

Thirdly, WHAT the hell do you mean by "According to your beliefs?" Since when did I said anything about my belief in any statements I had used here? Don't make your own assumptions.

First let us assert that the flip of a given penny is completely random. If you sit there and flip the penny a billion times, you will find that approximately half the time (500,000,000) you will get heads whereas the rest you will get tails. Also, each result is wholly independent of every other result. It's a random process. Nothing mysical is governing what side of the coin will be face-up.

Now, take ten pennies and toss them into the air. What are the chances that they will all be heads when you look? Well, mathematically this is easy to figure out: there is only one way for them to be all heads out of a total of 2^10 possible configurations, which means your probability of getting all heads through pure random luck is 1/1024. So what does this mean? Well, if you and 1023 friends all get together and each of you throws a fist-full of ten pennies in the air, it is likely that at least one of you will get all heads. Now getting all heads is an amazing coincidence, but clearly random chance allows it to happen. Random chance says it will happen every so often. "Coincidences" will happen in a world governed by random processes, for they are just defined as outcomes with low (but not zero!) probability. So if you see a coincidence, I know you're tempted to think something mystical must be at work, but ask yourself why this is. Why must something mystical be at work when that very outcome is expected out of sheer random chance? How can you say with any confidence that it wasn't random?

My reply : What mathematical theory do you use to calculate possible outcomes when dealing with humans? How do you calculate possibilities when it deals with emotions?

IF you cannot answer that OR don't understand what I meant by that question, then get lost ... You WILL never come close to understanding the basic of all this.

By echidna

Neat trick, Lob. That might take Seraphim a while.

My sarcasm : Have you taught him how to roll and play dead too? What dog biskut you use?

By VonEvilstein

And that tells me everything I need to know to understand your position.

My reply : Which position is that? What do you wish to understand?

By Corona688

At the same time bombs were falling on Afghanistan, someone certainly farted somewhere in the United States. Therefore bean burritos should be banned, since they advance the cause of US aggression. Remember, there are no coincidences.

And yes, that was sarcasm.

To : Jennifer D, do you still remember when I said that people will call others with such abilities (like my friend) a freak? Well ... here's some of those examples of name calling and riddicules ... Thank God my friend is not here to see all this.

Nothing is change ... some humans is still an ape not matter what computer it learn to use. Yes, Sarcasm as well.

Where are some of those examples? I intentionally did not edit any of your post because I don't want to take anything out of context, but I really don't see anywhere in that post (or in this entire thread) where anybody called someone with those abilities a freak.

Ensign Steve · 03-14-2003, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nowhere357
Miscommunication. Slippery words, few definitions. Saraphim is just exploring, and I don't think his eyes are closed. For sure invective does't help.

I agree, invective never helps. However, you cited Seraphim's original post as the reason you believe that "Seraphim is just exploring." If you will notice, as soon as anybody put forth their views, he immediately began arguing in favor of his view. That's fine, but he also accused anybody who did not have his view of being closed-minded and bigotted against his friend who apparently does have psychic abilities and has been discriminated against because of it. A friend who none of us have ever even met! The people on this board just gave their views, which were so politely asked for, but then they were immediately attacked for holding those views.

Invective doesn't help, but it is not as unwarranted as the OP makes it seem.

Nowhere357 · 03-14-2003, 08:59 AM

I agree he started it. Thread title and behavior don't match, either.

03-14-2003, 05:00 PM

by Shadowy Man

It matters because I asked you what you thought.

Since you don't want to give an answer, it appears you aren't actually interested in a dialogue.

Take care...

You asked, I'd answered. To accept or not to accept is the choice of the person who asked. I cannot give you answers which what you wished to hear all the time. Take care too.

By LadyShea

Yes, I remember the question...in that thread you had asserted that it is possible to transfer "energy" from one person to another. Others had argued that our "energy" comes from physical process in the body and only heat can be transferred and you said more than heat is transferred. I asked "If we can transfer some sort of life essential energy, can we save a starving person by massaging them?"

My reply : Now I remember ... but I don't remember avoiding to answer though. Anyway, I will give you one now if that will settle my debt to you.

A person cannot fullfill another's (who is starving) body with our own energy because we don't have enough ourselves OR that the body's requirement of energy is too great to be fullfill.

It will be like trying to fill an ocean with water from a well. The water will dissipate into the ground (which will be bone dried) and none of it will fill the ocean. In your example, cells of the starving man will use that energy which we "donate" first before any other organs do. Besides, the energy produced by the chemical interaction inside the body produces more energy than the one we can transfer to the person by touch.

There are very few people who cannot be cold read to some extent...when faced with these people "psychics" will simply not try to read them or say "I've lost the connection" or somehow NOT be psychic with those people.

There are several reason for a psyhic unable to link to another person :

1. The person's mind is preoccupied with something which requires his attention. The more work he does that doesn't require his mind to do calculation, the better the chance for a link.

2. The activity a psychic had/have performed before he or she attempted such feat. In men, according to my friend, sexual activities attend to lower chance of a link. In women, sex is not big problem as long as she doesn't get preoccupied with what she did with her partner the night before.

3. Purpose for a link. Why a person which to link with another? Randi's million is NOT a very good reason ... afterall, not everyone is a money-grabbing SOBs.

4. Mental blocks - both by the psyhics and the person who he/she tries to link. Linking with another is just like driving to part of a city you are not familiar yet, entering a house you don't know who it is belongs to and start looking around. You may not like what you find OR the owner of the house may not be so happy to allow you to look inside his house.

I don't have children, I was simply demonstrating to you that thousands of children are killed and hurt every day...why don't their mother's innate psychic abilities predict this so the kids can be protected?

Cannot be answered unless you bring a victim's mother face to face with me and my friend (I probably could do a cold-reading).

Sorry ... I thought I imagined a child (about 8 yrs, blonde and talks too much) when I wrote to you earlier ... must be from one of the magazine I read earlier OR someone's else child I seen before.

BTW - I thought you going to counter my reply to your emotions statement further, that was a bit short.

By Nowhere357

There is miscommunication going on here. Seraphim is just exploring, and I don't think his eyes are closed. The invective is just making it worse. Part of the problem of course is all these slippery words, and the lack of precise definitions.
I think the basic non-theistic starting point is "the natural universe is everything that exists". The word supernatural then means "things that don't exist". And psycic powers are supernatural. HOWEVER newcomers might think more like this: "the natural universe is the physical universe, and the word supernatural means non-physical (powers) stuff - some of which could be true". And psycic means non-physical (powers). (I am sure there are many other initial views.)
Hence the miscommunication. For example Seraphim meant (I think) the yellow car and screwdriver example, to show how a supposedly psycic ability (the spooky feeling) was actually explainable as a natural thing! He agrees with the skeptic view on that, but was told that was wrong, by the skeptics.

Anyway, the psycic ability which impresses me the most is the "hunters sense". I think there is a lot of anecdotal evidence from hunters etc. : don't stare at the target, hair on the back of the neck, you can sense when you are being stared at. And even that can be explained as sub-conscious cues.
So yeah, evidence. For that we need tests, and it would help to know what we're looking for, right? So it's okay to think about things psycic. That does't imply "belief in the supernatural".

That's my two cents worth, in defense of all rookie non-phd explorers everywhere.

Thanks for the view.

By Lobstrosity

Seraphim, were you by any chance dropped on your head as a child? Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you?

You: I believe in no coincidences.
Me: Well I can demonstrate that coincidences can clearly happen.
You: But can you flip emotions?
Me: WTF?

What's wrong with me? I'm waiting for you to show me how you can predict outcome of humans who are dealing with emotions with that crazy coin flipping crap of yours. You can do it OR not?

By LadyShea

By JenniferD

Where are some of those examples? I intentionally did not edit any of your post because I don't want to take anything out of context, but I really don't see anywhere in that post (or in this entire thread) where anybody called someone with those abilities a freak.

Never mind ...

If you will notice, as soon as anybody put forth their views, he immediately began arguing in favor of his view. That's fine, but he also accused anybody who did not have his view of being closed-minded and bigotted against his friend who apparently does have psychic abilities and has been discriminated against because of it. A friend who none of us have ever even met! The people on this board just gave their views, which were so politely asked for, but then they were immediately attacked for holding those views.

Oh? For a person who cannot understand sentences of sarcastic remarks from others, you have no problem understanding my posts very well ...

You said you believe in coincidence and it is your opinion and I accepted that ... that's all you need to know.
As for those who are polite, I have answered politely (which includes you). It is those who are being SOBs which I counter harshly ... which I don't see what business is yours. I have said before that your opinions is yours to have and I just interested in hearing about it since beginning this thread.

Invective doesn't help, but it is not as unwarranted as the OP makes it seem.

Being a puppet that shakes his head just because everyone else is shaking their heads also doesn't help much in the world either ... never mind if you don't understand (won't be a big surprise either).

By Nowhere357

I agree he started it. Thread title and behavior don't match, either.

Either the answer or the people who answered it here either ... but no one seems to be complaining about that ...

Viti · 03-14-2003, 06:06 PM

Well, I still don't quite understand where you're trying to go with the "emotions" questions Seraphim. I didn't address it because I didn't know what you are looking for. Can you give me some specific examples?

03-14-2003, 06:09 PM

By LadyShea

Well, I still don't quite understand where you're trying to go with the "emotions" questions Seraphim. I didn't address it because I didn't know what you are looking for. Can you give me some specific examples?

Never mind then ... I think I got enough views from various people ... no need to enter any more "discussions".
Thank you, have a nice day ... Oh, and say hello to a 8 yr old Blondy who talks too much for me IF you see one this weekend :P

Nowhere357 · 03-14-2003, 06:28 PM

I agree he started it. Thread title and behavior don't match, either.

Either the answer or the people who answered it here either ... but no one seems to be complaining about that ...

It is your thread. Please try to relax.

What level of science have you reached? I ask, in order to help see where your understanding is at. It's hard to interpret what you're saying in a positive way.

I have college-level basic physical science, biology, psychology, electronics, lots of math, and computer science. On my own I've studied cosmology, relativity theory, quantum theory, and read histories of science and discovery. Believe me I'm not bragging; a lot of this is 20yrs old, and in this forum I feel like an idiot.

I'm a student not a guide, but I like to help when I can. Maybe restate your question, and start over?

03-14-2003, 06:36 PM

By Nowhere357

It is your thread. Please try to relax.

Sure ... I bet you're very relaxed when everyone bash your views but gives little answer when you ask something back.

What level of science have you reached? I ask, in order to help see where your understanding is at. It's hard to interpret what you're saying in a positive way.

I have college-level basic physical science, biology, psychology, electronics, lots of math, and computer science. On my own I've studied cosmology, relativity theory, quantum theory, and read histories of science and discovery. Believe me I'm not bragging; a lot of this is 20yrs old, and in this forum I feel like an idiot.

My reply : I have no degree or anything about any of the above subjects you mentioned, and most of what I know comes from self-study and interaction with others (that should make a few people happy ... as if college degrees supposed to bring enlightment to people).
I don't feel like an idiot ... if you do, that's your choice I guess.

I'm a student not a guide, but I like to help when I can. Maybe restate your question, and start over?

No use ... I don't see what is the use for it. I've received more than enough views and data. I wanted those views and data, I have go it ... so why should we start this all over again?

03-14-2003, 06:28 PM	#119
Nowhere357 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Grand Junction CO Posts: 2,231	what am i doing? I agree he started it. Thread title and behavior don't match, either. Either the answer or the people who answered it here either ... but no one seems to be complaining about that ... It is your thread. Please try to relax. What level of science have you reached? I ask, in order to help see where your understanding is at. It's hard to interpret what you're saying in a positive way. I have college-level basic physical science, biology, psychology, electronics, lots of math, and computer science. On my own I've studied cosmology, relativity theory, quantum theory, and read histories of science and discovery. Believe me I'm not bragging; a lot of this is 20yrs old, and in this forum I feel like an idiot. I'm a student not a guide, but I like to help when I can. Maybe restate your question, and start over?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-14-2003, 08:59 AM	#115
Nowhere357 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Grand Junction CO Posts: 2,231	I agree he started it. Thread title and behavior don't match, either.

03-14-2003, 05:00 PM	#116
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	by Shadowy Man It matters because I asked you what you thought. Since you don't want to give an answer, it appears you aren't actually interested in a dialogue. Take care... You asked, I'd answered. To accept or not to accept is the choice of the person who asked. I cannot give you answers which what you wished to hear all the time. Take care too. By LadyShea Yes, I remember the question...in that thread you had asserted that it is possible to transfer "energy" from one person to another. Others had argued that our "energy" comes from physical process in the body and only heat can be transferred and you said more than heat is transferred. I asked "If we can transfer some sort of life essential energy, can we save a starving person by massaging them?" My reply : Now I remember ... but I don't remember avoiding to answer though. Anyway, I will give you one now if that will settle my debt to you. A person cannot fullfill another's (who is starving) body with our own energy because we don't have enough ourselves OR that the body's requirement of energy is too great to be fullfill. It will be like trying to fill an ocean with water from a well. The water will dissipate into the ground (which will be bone dried) and none of it will fill the ocean. In your example, cells of the starving man will use that energy which we "donate" first before any other organs do. Besides, the energy produced by the chemical interaction inside the body produces more energy than the one we can transfer to the person by touch. There are very few people who cannot be cold read to some extent...when faced with these people "psychics" will simply not try to read them or say "I've lost the connection" or somehow NOT be psychic with those people. There are several reason for a psyhic unable to link to another person : 1. The person's mind is preoccupied with something which requires his attention. The more work he does that doesn't require his mind to do calculation, the better the chance for a link. 2. The activity a psychic had/have performed before he or she attempted such feat. In men, according to my friend, sexual activities attend to lower chance of a link. In women, sex is not big problem as long as she doesn't get preoccupied with what she did with her partner the night before. 3. Purpose for a link. Why a person which to link with another? Randi's million is NOT a very good reason ... afterall, not everyone is a money-grabbing SOBs. 4. Mental blocks - both by the psyhics and the person who he/she tries to link. Linking with another is just like driving to part of a city you are not familiar yet, entering a house you don't know who it is belongs to and start looking around. You may not like what you find OR the owner of the house may not be so happy to allow you to look inside his house. I don't have children, I was simply demonstrating to you that thousands of children are killed and hurt every day...why don't their mother's innate psychic abilities predict this so the kids can be protected? Cannot be answered unless you bring a victim's mother face to face with me and my friend (I probably could do a cold-reading). Sorry ... I thought I imagined a child (about 8 yrs, blonde and talks too much) when I wrote to you earlier ... must be from one of the magazine I read earlier OR someone's else child I seen before. BTW - I thought you going to counter my reply to your emotions statement further, that was a bit short. By Nowhere357 There is miscommunication going on here. Seraphim is just exploring, and I don't think his eyes are closed. The invective is just making it worse. Part of the problem of course is all these slippery words, and the lack of precise definitions. I think the basic non-theistic starting point is "the natural universe is everything that exists". The word supernatural then means "things that don't exist". And psycic powers are supernatural. HOWEVER newcomers might think more like this: "the natural universe is the physical universe, and the word supernatural means non-physical (powers) stuff - some of which could be true". And psycic means non-physical (powers). (I am sure there are many other initial views.) Hence the miscommunication. For example Seraphim meant (I think) the yellow car and screwdriver example, to show how a supposedly psycic ability (the spooky feeling) was actually explainable as a natural thing! He agrees with the skeptic view on that, but was told that was wrong, by the skeptics. Anyway, the psycic ability which impresses me the most is the "hunters sense". I think there is a lot of anecdotal evidence from hunters etc. : don't stare at the target, hair on the back of the neck, you can sense when you are being stared at. And even that can be explained as sub-conscious cues. So yeah, evidence. For that we need tests, and it would help to know what we're looking for, right? So it's okay to think about things psycic. That does't imply "belief in the supernatural". That's my two cents worth, in defense of all rookie non-phd explorers everywhere. Thanks for the view. By Lobstrosity Seraphim, were you by any chance dropped on your head as a child? Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you? You: I believe in no coincidences. Me: Well I can demonstrate that coincidences can clearly happen. You: But can you flip emotions? Me: WTF? What's wrong with me? I'm waiting for you to show me how you can predict outcome of humans who are dealing with emotions with that crazy coin flipping crap of yours. You can do it OR not? By LadyShea By JenniferD Where are some of those examples? I intentionally did not edit any of your post because I don't want to take anything out of context, but I really don't see anywhere in that post (or in this entire thread) where anybody called someone with those abilities a freak. Never mind ... If you will notice, as soon as anybody put forth their views, he immediately began arguing in favor of his view. That's fine, but he also accused anybody who did not have his view of being closed-minded and bigotted against his friend who apparently does have psychic abilities and has been discriminated against because of it. A friend who none of us have ever even met! The people on this board just gave their views, which were so politely asked for, but then they were immediately attacked for holding those views. Oh? For a person who cannot understand sentences of sarcastic remarks from others, you have no problem understanding my posts very well ... You said you believe in coincidence and it is your opinion and I accepted that ... that's all you need to know. As for those who are polite, I have answered politely (which includes you). It is those who are being SOBs which I counter harshly ... which I don't see what business is yours. I have said before that your opinions is yours to have and I just interested in hearing about it since beginning this thread. Invective doesn't help, but it is not as unwarranted as the OP makes it seem. Being a puppet that shakes his head just because everyone else is shaking their heads also doesn't help much in the world either ... never mind if you don't understand (won't be a big surprise either). By Nowhere357 I agree he started it. Thread title and behavior don't match, either. Either the answer or the people who answered it here either ... but no one seems to be complaining about that ...

03-14-2003, 06:06 PM	#117
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Well, I still don't quite understand where you're trying to go with the "emotions" questions Seraphim. I didn't address it because I didn't know what you are looking for. Can you give me some specific examples?

03-14-2003, 06:09 PM	#118
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	By LadyShea Well, I still don't quite understand where you're trying to go with the "emotions" questions Seraphim. I didn't address it because I didn't know what you are looking for. Can you give me some specific examples? Never mind then ... I think I got enough views from various people ... no need to enter any more "discussions". Thank you, have a nice day ... Oh, and say hello to a 8 yr old Blondy who talks too much for me IF you see one this weekend :P

03-14-2003, 06:36 PM	#120
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	By Nowhere357 It is your thread. Please try to relax. Sure ... I bet you're very relaxed when everyone bash your views but gives little answer when you ask something back. What level of science have you reached? I ask, in order to help see where your understanding is at. It's hard to interpret what you're saying in a positive way. I have college-level basic physical science, biology, psychology, electronics, lots of math, and computer science. On my own I've studied cosmology, relativity theory, quantum theory, and read histories of science and discovery. Believe me I'm not bragging; a lot of this is 20yrs old, and in this forum I feel like an idiot. My reply : I have no degree or anything about any of the above subjects you mentioned, and most of what I know comes from self-study and interaction with others (that should make a few people happy ... as if college degrees supposed to bring enlightment to people). I don't feel like an idiot ... if you do, that's your choice I guess. I'm a student not a guide, but I like to help when I can. Maybe restate your question, and start over? No use ... I don't see what is the use for it. I've received more than enough views and data. I wanted those views and data, I have go it ... so why should we start this all over again?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.