Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 01-26-2002, 01:33 AM

The writers of the Bible appear to have shown little interest in astronomical matters; the main astronomical motif I know of from the Bible is the story of Samson, which is often described as a Sun allegory.

There is nothing like what went on in Mithraism, where initiates would go through seven levels, one per planet (in the ancient sense of the term).

In fact, this suggests that Christianity-Mithraism similarities are more likely more general simlarities with pagan mystery religions, such as eating a sacred meal.

Also, in Mithraism, Mithras is described as being born from a rock, and a very important thing he does is to kill a bull. However, though Jesus Christ kills some pigs and a fig tree, he never kills a bull.

Finally, although Sun worship is common among pagan religions; it's interesting that this never led to the discovery of heliocentrism; I recall some Egyptian myth about what the Sun has to go through in the underworld at night. To me, it would seem that someone who worships the Sun as an important god would enjoy the thought that the Sun is the central fire of the Solar System, a gigantic object that the other Solar-System objects move around (strictly speaking, they all move around the Solar System's barycenter, but the Sun is the closest object to that point).

Haran · 01-26-2002, 06:17 AM

Ipetrich,

Read the book of Enoch, especially the Book of Watchers within... I know it's not in the Bible, but it shows that there was a great scientific/religious interest in the heavens and how they worked.

<a href="http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/enoch.html" target="_blank">Information on Enoch by a respected DSS scholar, James VanderKam...</a>

As VanderKam mentions, try chapters 72-82 in <a href="http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/enoch.htm" target="_blank">1Enoch</a>. It's kinda dry reading though, so hope you can make it through it...

Haran

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Haran ]

Marduk · 01-26-2002, 06:24 AM

"Finally, although Sun worship is common among pagan religions; it's interesting that this never led to the discovery of heliocentrism;"

I remember reading somewhere that the High Preists of Egypt were aware that the Earth was round and revolved around the Sun, as well as the other Planets, part of their secret knowledge that they shared with no one. Can't remember where I read it but it had to do with the astronomer Kelper (?) and a reference to another guy who's name I forget, not Galileo but the other guy who knew the Earth was round, ahh Copernicus, quoting an Egyptian source.
Helpful aren't I.

lpetrich · 01-26-2002, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by marduck:

I remember reading somewhere that the High Preists of Egypt were aware that the Earth was round and revolved around the Sun, as well as the other Planets, part of their secret knowledge that they shared with no one. ...

Please track down that reference. The Internet is big enough for you to make at least an initial attempt; I suggest that you get into the habit of doing Internet searches so you can check your sources.

The reference may be to Copernicus quoting some Pythagoreans or some such, however. And many Hellenistic Greeks lived in Egypt, possibly causing Marduck further confusion.

lpetrich · 01-26-2002, 08:50 AM

Here is <a href="http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/PUB/misc-misc/FlatEarth/FlatEarthAndBible.html" target="_blank">Robert Schadewald's summary</a>; 1 Enoch is a real hoot: stars are depicted as living and anthropomorphic, and there is a jail for stars that dawdle in their travels.

Haran · 01-26-2002, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
1 Enoch is a real hoot: stars are depicted as living and anthropomorphic, and there is a jail for stars that dawdle in their travels.

However, lpetrich, there's much more to it than a shallow surface reading would show you. Analyze the section I specifically mentioned and you'll see that the ancients were a little more smart than perhaps you give them credit for... Personally, I think the "summary" you posted lacks good scholarship, but that's up to you to find out.

Haran

lpetrich · 01-26-2002, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Haran:

However, lpetrich, there's much more to it than a shallow surface reading would show you. Analyze the section I specifically mentioned and you'll see that the ancients were a little more smart than perhaps you give them credit for...

OK, Smartypants, how were the authors of the book supposed to be so smart? And why not make similar defenses of similarly absurd stories, like all the stories of Zeus being a shameless womanizer?

Muad'Dib · 01-26-2002, 11:46 PM

So far as I know, Haran is not arguing for the veracity of the cosmological claims of the Bible (or any other document), merely that the ancients were no less intelligent than we are; they tended to do the best they could with the methodology available to them, just as we do today.

RyanS2 · 01-27-2002, 01:26 AM

Were the Jews familiar with Egyptian and Chaldean astrology?� Well, outside from astrological texts found at the Qumran, we also find peppered mentions of the Zodiac and the signs throughout the Old Testament.� In Malachai 4:2 of the Old Testament, it states "But unto you, fear my name, shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings."

If you go to

<a href="http://www.premier1.net/~raines/disc.gif" target="_blank">http://www.premier1.net/~raines/disc.gif</a>

you can see the Egypt picture for the “Sun with healing wings”.

In the book of Job Chapter 38:33 "Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? 38:31 "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Plei-a-des or loose the bands of Orion?" 38:32 "Canst thou bring forth Mazz-a-roth in his season? or canst thou guide Arc-tu-rus with his sons?" This is all in reference to the zodiac and astrology. The definition of Mazzaroth in the King James Version of the bible is "The twelve houses of the zodiac". �Likewise, you can find the same thing in several translations of that verse.

Again, if you go to Ezekiel 20:8

"they did not forsake ha-elohim [the gods] of Egypt"

The Gods of Egypt were based off astrotheology, so were the Chaldean and Canaanite Gods. The Catholic Encyclopedia under "Astrology" tells us about the Egyptians viewpoint:

"It is significant that in ancient Egypt astronomy, as well as astrology, was brought to an undoubtedly high state of cultivation. The astoundingly daring theories of the world found in the Egyptian texts, which permit us to infer that their authors were even acquainted with the helio-centric conception of the universe, are based entirely on astrologico-theosophic views."

It also gives a bit of history on the neighbors of the Jews, who were big astrologers. Maybe that the Jews didn't understand or were as in-depth into astrology as the Egyptians, (the Egyptians having been around a lot longer and being more wealthy than the Hebrews would have naturally known more), but they did understand it.

Haran · 01-27-2002, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib:
So far as I know, Haran is not arguing for the veracity of the cosmological claims of the Bible (or any other document), merely that the ancients were no less intelligent than we are; they tended to do the best they could with the methodology available to them, just as we do today.

Quite right. Thanks Muad'Dib.

Sorry, lpetrich. I believe my post came across a little stronger than I intended, judging by the "smartypants" comment it elicited.

To be a little more explicit, we easily skim over the technical parts to find things like you mentioned that are offensive to our modern minds.

The Astronomical Book of Enoch (1 Enoch 72-83, which I mistakenly called the Book of Watchers, 1 Enoch 1-36) is filled with many observant technical details about lunar phases, solstices, differing numbers of days from month to month (mentioning that some err by not including the four extra days in calculating the year), and provides two schematic calendars for the year (a 354 day lunar year w/alternating 29 and 30 day months & a 364 day solar year of 52 weeks).

Heck, if my calendars and clocks were taken away from me, I don't know if I would be able to reproduce the relatively accurate information found there without observing the heavens for quite a while myself. So, I think there is more to these ancient "scientific" works than you seem to credit them with in your previous posts...

A couple of other interesting things VanderKam has to say about the Astronomical Book of Enoch:

Quote:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802846416/qid%3D1012165758/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/104-2490774-3917559" target="_blank">An Introduction to Early Judaism, James C. VanderKam</a>

.....

"It is rather a "scientific" treatise which exercised a considerable influence on the authors of the Book of Jubilees and the Qumran literature."

.....

"The book itself is actually supposed to be Enoch's first person report about these matters to his son Methuselah, after he had returned from his journey. The AB is the earliest known work that associates Enoch with Astronomical phenomena and with the length of the year - something that may already be implied by his biblical age of 365 years at the time when God "took" him (<a href="http://www.bible.org/netbible/gen5.htm" target="_blank">Gen. 5:23-24</a>)."

.....

"The AB allows us to see clearly that ancient Jewish writers thought of Enoch as an expert in astronomy, one who had an unimpeachable source of information. Enoch, as the seventh man from Adam, has been compared with Enmedurank, who was the seventh antediluvian king in some versions of the Sumerian king list. Enmeduranki was king of Sippar, the city of the sun god, and was the ancestor of a certain kind of diviner. The gods had disclosed secret information to him. The Enoch of the AB seems to embody some similar traits as the Jewish hero who associates with divine beings and is perfectly informed about the movements of the heavenly bodies."

Thanks,
Haran

[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: Haran ]

01-26-2002, 01:33 AM	#1
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Bible Astronomy? The writers of the Bible appear to have shown little interest in astronomical matters; the main astronomical motif I know of from the Bible is the story of Samson, which is often described as a Sun allegory. There is nothing like what went on in Mithraism, where initiates would go through seven levels, one per planet (in the ancient sense of the term). In fact, this suggests that Christianity-Mithraism similarities are more likely more general simlarities with pagan mystery religions, such as eating a sacred meal. Also, in Mithraism, Mithras is described as being born from a rock, and a very important thing he does is to kill a bull. However, though Jesus Christ kills some pigs and a fig tree, he never kills a bull. Finally, although Sun worship is common among pagan religions; it's interesting that this never led to the discovery of heliocentrism; I recall some Egyptian myth about what the Sun has to go through in the underworld at night. To me, it would seem that someone who worships the Sun as an important god would enjoy the thought that the Sun is the central fire of the Solar System, a gigantic object that the other Solar-System objects move around (strictly speaking, they all move around the Solar System's barycenter, but the Sun is the closest object to that point).

01-26-2002, 06:17 AM	#2
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	Ipetrich, Read the book of Enoch, especially the Book of Watchers within... I know it's not in the Bible, but it shows that there was a great scientific/religious interest in the heavens and how they worked. <a href="http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/enoch.html" target="_blank">Information on Enoch by a respected DSS scholar, James VanderKam...</a> As VanderKam mentions, try chapters 72-82 in <a href="http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/enoch.htm" target="_blank">1Enoch</a>. It's kinda dry reading though, so hope you can make it through it... Haran [ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Haran ]</p>

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01-26-2002, 06:24 AM	#3
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"Finally, although Sun worship is common among pagan religions; it's interesting that this never led to the discovery of heliocentrism;" I remember reading somewhere that the High Preists of Egypt were aware that the Earth was round and revolved around the Sun, as well as the other Planets, part of their secret knowledge that they shared with no one. Can't remember where I read it but it had to do with the astronomer Kelper (?) and a reference to another guy who's name I forget, not Galileo but the other guy who knew the Earth was round, ahh Copernicus, quoting an Egyptian source. Helpful aren't I.

01-26-2002, 08:50 AM	#5
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Here is <a href="http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/PUB/misc-misc/FlatEarth/FlatEarthAndBible.html" target="_blank">Robert Schadewald's summary</a>; 1 Enoch is a real hoot: stars are depicted as living and anthropomorphic, and there is a jail for stars that dawdle in their travels.

01-26-2002, 11:46 PM	#8
Muad'Dib Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 845	So far as I know, Haran is not arguing for the veracity of the cosmological claims of the Bible (or any other document), merely that the ancients were no less intelligent than we are; they tended to do the best they could with the methodology available to them, just as we do today.

01-27-2002, 01:26 AM	#9
RyanS2 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Louisiana Posts: 216	Were the Jews familiar with Egyptian and Chaldean astrology?� Well, outside from astrological texts found at the Qumran, we also find peppered mentions of the Zodiac and the signs throughout the Old Testament.� In Malachai 4:2 of the Old Testament, it states "But unto you, fear my name, shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings." If you go to <a href="http://www.premier1.net/~raines/disc.gif" target="_blank">http://www.premier1.net/~raines/disc.gif</a> you can see the Egypt picture for the “Sun with healing wings”. In the book of Job Chapter 38:33 "Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? 38:31 "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Plei-a-des or loose the bands of Orion?" 38:32 "Canst thou bring forth Mazz-a-roth in his season? or canst thou guide Arc-tu-rus with his sons?" This is all in reference to the zodiac and astrology. The definition of Mazzaroth in the King James Version of the bible is "The twelve houses of the zodiac". �Likewise, you can find the same thing in several translations of that verse. Again, if you go to Ezekiel 20:8 "they did not forsake ha-elohim [the gods] of Egypt" The Gods of Egypt were based off astrotheology, so were the Chaldean and Canaanite Gods. The Catholic Encyclopedia under "Astrology" tells us about the Egyptians viewpoint: "It is significant that in ancient Egypt astronomy, as well as astrology, was brought to an undoubtedly high state of cultivation. The astoundingly daring theories of the world found in the Egyptian texts, which permit us to infer that their authors were even acquainted with the helio-centric conception of the universe, are based entirely on astrologico-theosophic views." It also gives a bit of history on the neighbors of the Jews, who were big astrologers. Maybe that the Jews didn't understand or were as in-depth into astrology as the Egyptians, (the Egyptians having been around a lot longer and being more wealthy than the Hebrews would have naturally known more), but they did understand it.

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