notMichaelJackson

Hindus (and maybe Buddhists) believe that every living creature has a soul. Everything moves from one creature to another from lifetime to lifetime. For example, you may have been a carrot in the last life until someone plucked you up and ate you. If I am not mistaken, Hindus believe that all souls were created at one point and no new ones are added by the gods. They also believe that some people make it to nirvana, and their souls are no longer recyled.

Ok. If there are no new souls added to this system, and most make it to nirvana (lets say one soul a day), then the population of all organisms on earth should be steadily declining.

Just some thoughts. Too bad for the poor Hindus. Oh, well. It's not like there are a lot of sane people outside India that really believe all that.

<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

Waning Moon Conrad

Grizzly

My feelings exactly....

notMichaelJackson

On my post or Hindu beliefs?

Hinduthvaite

Dear nMJ,

There are many sections of HIndus who believe God created the souls like ISKCON. But then they do not believe in Nirvana. Rather like Abarahamic religiosn with belief in personal God they believe in these souls reaching a Paradise sort of state with the God. They also believe this happens through a series of reincarnations. They also believe God can continously create souls.
Then there are many more sections of Hindus like the non-dualists (Advaitins & Vedantists) who see everything as the manifestation of one Supreme consciousness and that once this non-dual nature of the Cosmos is realised the being attains Nirvana. 'Tat thvam asi' say the Upanishads. Thous art already that. Once the ego drops out you realise the real you which is your connectedness with the whole universe. There is no set rules or path to attain this state of consciousness. You may attain this state through your work which may be cleaning the toilet or writing science fiction or serving the working children of developing nations through night classes. Or conversely you may be a person with a strong emotional bend of mind then you can use your devotion to a personal deity too to attain this state of being as did Jewish and some Christian mystics and many saints of Bhakthi movement in India or you can try to attain this using some Tantric cults or you can be a strong skeptical person questining everything and use science as a candle light in the demon-haunted universe like Carl Sagan and attain this state of consciousness where you can transcend your little circles and embrace all the Universe with love and intelligence withoit having to evoke any mystical mumbo-jumboo. Ultimately your individual mental make-up and experiences are tne key. So no soul count here. Just we walk the way as we choose through our volition. 'Ekam Sat Vibra Bahautha Vathanthi' says Rig Veda meaning 'Truth alone is there and wise realize it through many ways.' Keepy up the sarcastic skeptic questioning buddy. Who knows! It may be your way.

S.Aravindan Neelakandan

Waning Moon Conrad

My rolling of eyes is about your post. The argument you've made simply doesn't work. Never did, never will.

With Buddhism, which I do know something about and probably with Hinduism also, your argument fails to take in certain other extremely basic beliefs such as; that there are many world systems within the physical universe that we can see that have sentient life, let alone the various other dimensions.

There are also alleged to be other realms such as eighteen different hells. Just the hell realms alone might yield absolute treasure troves of souls that have purified their karma and died to those hells to be reborn as animals, hungry ghosts, humans etc.

It might all be wrong. It might all be just belief and nothing more. But it is definitely not as simplistic as you have assumed.

Can you imagine an ant stating that it is much, much bigger than a bull elephant? Can you imagine that ant playing a violin-of-great-mockery to celebrate its accomplishment of crushing the elephant to dust with the grandeur of its size?

Wouldn't a rabbit, fox, squirrel or monkey witnessing this, roll its eyes at the ant's behaviour?

Your suggestion that all it takes is a few of your thoughts to reduce the totality of Hinduism, its philosophy, thought, practice and the experience of all who have contributed to it, to abject poverty - followed by the violin-of-great-mockery is like the ant.

Your relieved assertion that it's not as if there are many sane people outside India who believe this is also completely wrong. There are many sane people who believe in transmigration outside of India. Many. Always have been, probably always will be.

[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Waning Moon Conrad ]</p>

Seraphim

Ok. If there are no new souls added to this system, and most make it to nirvana (lets say one soul a day), then the population of all organisms on earth should be steadily declining.

Just some thoughts. Too bad for the poor Hindus. Oh, well. It's not like there are a lot of sane people outside India that really believe all that.

My reply : One soul makes it to Nirwana PER day? Sorry ... humans (or any other species for that matter) isn't THAT holy. Achieving Nirwana is not a simple process nor does it stops in ONE lifetime.

As for your population of the organism decline part, that is true. Ever heard of doomsday? Maybe Kiamat?

notMichaelJackson

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Sattwic

WMC.. that was good enough.
I don't think notMichealJackson needs a honest answer. He is not looking for it anyway. Hinduism and Buddhism religions are for those who seek answers and path. They are not like Semitic religions which try to force a pattern of faith and dogma on followers to believe in a Saviour or a Prophet.

Also, I think notMK has no grasp of Eastern Philosophy. and not likely to take to reading more on the subject.

I don't laught at you, but pity your IQ.

---------------------------------------
To the point raised by notMK, some information.
Hinduism and Buddhism share much basic philosophical base.

From a Hindu viewpoint (Take away God, it will correspond overall with Buddhist viewpoint too)
1. The Universe as we know it has no beginning nor end.
God did not create the universe out of necessity or at a point in time. If He had created it at a point in (his) time, the question arises about HIS NEED to create. If He had a need to create, it means He is not God, for God cannot have needs, desires etc. He is self sufficient. Has everything that a need for something new cannot/never arises. Only deficient entities like us have 'needs'...

So the Universe exists in eternity. It is a cycle of manifestation (distinguished from creation of judeo-christian-islamic), preservation and dissolution. This cycle is seen as a 'Dance', an exercise without need. Lila or Play of God is also used for describing the existence of the Universe. The creative potency of God (Brahman), manifests itself as the eternal Universe resting in God, out of God and inside God.. there is no empty space or area beyond God. He has no limits. Therefore 'ex nihilo' or creation out of nothing of Semitic religions is philosophical invalid, teaches Hinduism.

Souls have no total 'number'. A definite number will mean that God's potency to manifest souls can be counted.. in fact the number of souls is infinity. No end nor start. But ever existing. Every soul will ultimately reach God/Union with God. Like sparks out of fire they arise from God, like rivers into sea, they merge with God. The cycle goes on..and on.

Like WMC put it, there are countless realsm and spheres of existence. Semetic religions are Earth-centric, the Eastern religions are Universe centric. Earth is but one planet of countless others. Human existence is but a single form of life.. there are countless lives, intelligent and non-intelligent.

No one Prophet. No one Book. No one narrow path.
Truth is a pathless land.
Only Dharma is one, Truth is one. All is one reality, united in identity, manifesting in one eternity.