Freethought & Rationalism Archive

FredJ_UK · 04-23-2002, 10:25 AM

Hi

I just registered and this is my first posting.

I felt, although being an atheist, that I should at least read the bible so I know what I'm talking about.

I'm only half way through Exodus, but a thought (Which I feel is significant) has struck me. In Genesis there are a number of instances where mankind as a whole, or groups of individuals, are punished for various types of "wickedness" (drowning of almost all mankind in the flood, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah). Since I only came across the Commandments at Exodus Ch 20, I am led to wonder what moral code these people have contravened, and how they were expected to know about it? If it's a question of conscience, then this seems to demonstrate that external "law-giving" is not necessary to man to lead a moral life.

The_Gorgonzola · 04-23-2002, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FredJ_UK:
Hi

Since I only came across the Commandments at Exodus Ch 20, I am led to wonder what moral code these people have contravened, and how they were expected to know about it?

Interesting huh?

How about this one near the begining of the Bible. Adam and Eve are said to be responsible for "the Fall, Original Sin" because they disobeyed God by eating the "fruit of the Tree of Knowledge (of good and evil)". How could they have known that this was a wrong thing to do? How could this have been a sin if they had no knowledge of good and evil (and hence no idea that it was wrong (or evil) to disobey God, before they ate of "the Tree"?

Ahhh...paradoxes upon paradoxes.

Gorgo

FredJ_UK · 04-23-2002, 11:39 AM

Yes, that's curious too. (But I suppose that there could have been (undocumented) direct communication between God and Adam & Eve to cover this. There seemed to be a lot of "and God said unto xxx" in te early days. But by the time of the flood, there were presumably more people than God could shake a stick at (so to speak

)and so some more general, but apparently absent, communication mode needs to have been operating.

Toto · 04-23-2002, 11:45 AM

I think you have things backwards. The early writers of the tales in Genesis saw bad things happening, and assumed it must be because they had broken some divine law.

FredJ_UK · 04-23-2002, 11:23 PM

You are right, of course. But the point I was heading towards is that you can't claim that the bible is a necessary source of moral standard if it itself allows for mankind to define their own rules and for God to punish people on the basis of them.

CX · 04-24-2002, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Gorgonzola:
Adam and Eve are said to be responsible for "the Fall, Original Sin" because they disobeyed God by eating the "fruit of the Tree of Knowledge (of good and evil)". How could they have known that this was a wrong thing to do?

T'ain't a matter of them knowing right from wrong. It's a matter of them not doing what god done tol' 'em. He said don't eat. They ate. He got pissed off. We all pay for it. My kid is only now learning to distinguish right from wrong, but even before that he knew to do what dad and mom say.

I'm not saying it makes sense for an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omnipresent god to behave this way. I'm just saying it's not a paradox.

MortalWombat · 04-24-2002, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CX:


T'ain't a matter of them knowing right from wrong. It's a matter of them not doing what god done tol' 'em. He said don't eat. They ate. He got pissed off.

But they did not know that it was wrong to disobey, so you can't fault them. They were set up. Like putting a candy jar in a room with two little children, telling them not to eat any candy, and then leaving the door open so a bad stranger can come in and tell them it's OK to eat the candy. Can't fault little kids for eating the candy in this case.

Marduk · 04-24-2002, 03:52 PM

"Since I only came across the Commandments at Exodus Ch 20, I am led to wonder what moral code these people have contravened, and how they were expected to know about it? If it's a question of conscience, then this seems to demonstrate that external "law-giving" is not necessary to man to lead a moral life."

Ah how true, How did Noah know about clean and unclean animals?, you don't hit that till Deuteronomy.
How did the Jews in Egypt know they were Jews? didn't have the Bible till after they left, how'd they know who was to leave?
Gee, it almost sounds as if it were all written much later.

The_Gorgonzola · 04-24-2002, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CX:


T'ain't a matter of them knowing right from wrong. It's a matter of them not doing what god done tol' 'em. He said don't eat. They ate. He got pissed off. We all pay for it. My kid is only now learning to distinguish right from wrong, but even before that he knew to do what dad and mom say.

I'm not saying it makes sense for an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omnipresent god to behave this way. I'm just saying it's not a paradox.

I suppose that it depends on how we define “sin”. To my mind, sin is an act (of a competent individual) that the actor knows is wrong. It appears that Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong until they ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. Therefore they did not sin.

Of course my definition of sin could be incorrect. What do you think?

Gorgo

jdawg2 · 04-25-2002, 04:41 PM

even more interesting is that it flat out says "The Lord is a man of war"

and a couple verses down it talks about the Lord dashing folks to pieces...

I'm actually in the same boat as you...decided to read the bible and I'm currently halfway through exodus. Rather humorous story so far, although I'm wondering why the Lord kept "hardening" the pharoahe's heart...keeping him from letting the slaves go, even though that's what the lord wanted in the first place.

Guess the Lord just wanted to show off his smiting skills

04-23-2002, 10:25 AM	#1
FredJ_UK Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Staffordshire, England Posts: 16	Morality and Genesis Hi I just registered and this is my first posting. I felt, although being an atheist, that I should at least read the bible so I know what I'm talking about. I'm only half way through Exodus, but a thought (Which I feel is significant) has struck me. In Genesis there are a number of instances where mankind as a whole, or groups of individuals, are punished for various types of "wickedness" (drowning of almost all mankind in the flood, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah). Since I only came across the Commandments at Exodus Ch 20, I am led to wonder what moral code these people have contravened, and how they were expected to know about it? If it's a question of conscience, then this seems to demonstrate that external "law-giving" is not necessary to man to lead a moral life.

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04-23-2002, 11:39 AM	#3
FredJ_UK Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Staffordshire, England Posts: 16	Yes, that's curious too. (But I suppose that there could have been (undocumented) direct communication between God and Adam & Eve to cover this. There seemed to be a lot of "and God said unto xxx" in te early days. But by the time of the flood, there were presumably more people than God could shake a stick at (so to speak )and so some more general, but apparently absent, communication mode needs to have been operating.

04-23-2002, 11:45 AM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I think you have things backwards. The early writers of the tales in Genesis saw bad things happening, and assumed it must be because they had broken some divine law.

04-23-2002, 11:23 PM	#5
FredJ_UK Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Staffordshire, England Posts: 16	You are right, of course. But the point I was heading towards is that you can't claim that the bible is a necessary source of moral standard if it itself allows for mankind to define their own rules and for God to punish people on the basis of them.

04-24-2002, 03:52 PM	#8
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"Since I only came across the Commandments at Exodus Ch 20, I am led to wonder what moral code these people have contravened, and how they were expected to know about it? If it's a question of conscience, then this seems to demonstrate that external "law-giving" is not necessary to man to lead a moral life." Ah how true, How did Noah know about clean and unclean animals?, you don't hit that till Deuteronomy. How did the Jews in Egypt know they were Jews? didn't have the Bible till after they left, how'd they know who was to leave? Gee, it almost sounds as if it were all written much later.

04-25-2002, 04:41 PM	#10
jdawg2 Regular Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Cedar Hill, TX USA Posts: 113	even more interesting is that it flat out says "The Lord is a man of war" and a couple verses down it talks about the Lord dashing folks to pieces... I'm actually in the same boat as you...decided to read the bible and I'm currently halfway through exodus. Rather humorous story so far, although I'm wondering why the Lord kept "hardening" the pharoahe's heart...keeping him from letting the slaves go, even though that's what the lord wanted in the first place. Guess the Lord just wanted to show off his smiting skills

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