Freethought & Rationalism Archive

02-20-2003, 05:02 PM

Azrael is Gargamel's cat - from The Smurfs. I am filled with shame at knowing this.

RD

My reply : Hmm ... no wonder sounded familiar. Thank you.

I wonder ... IF I name my son (assuming of course I met someone who will stay with me long enough to make some) Azrael, will he too be a bad person?

Wonder also, can anyone actually say he is good or bad just because he has a certain type of name?

Technogeek · 02-20-2003, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JenniferD
Azrael was the good guy, though, when he talked some sense into that nun and helped her to realize she was wasting her life.

That wasn't Azrael. That was one of the angels - either Bartleby or Loki, I can't remember which.

I'd check, but I'm too lazy to dig out my DVD.

Ensign Steve · 02-20-2003, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Technogeek
That wasn't Azrael. That was one of the angels - either Bartleby or Loki, I can't remember which.

Oops! I thought that's who we were talking about. All I know is it was Matt Damon. Which one is Azrael?

MzNeko · 02-20-2003, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JenniferD
Oops! I thought that's who we were talking about. All I know is it was Matt Damon. Which one is Azrael?

The guy with the horns. He sent the little group of skater punks out to kill Linda Fiorentio's character. He also sent the shit-demon, and trapped everyone in that bar. Icky golf-club death...

Proctors_Gambit · 02-20-2003, 08:11 PM

Yeah it was loki who did the talking to the nun, at the start of the movie in the airport.

by Christian standards, a good Majority of the world, Im thinking 80% or so, who are not "born again", will go to hell.
They have no problem with this as long as they dont go there.

Thinking in terms, however, of the greatest good for the greatest number, I think that destroying everything and ending the hopeless suffering of most of the souls in existance to be not such a bad thing.

Granted Azrael was thinking of himself the whole time...
"Human, have you ever been to hell? Id rather not exist than go back to that. And if everyone has to go down with me then so be it"
But Im sure the souls burning in pain in hell would have been rooting for him.

-Gambit

Ensign Steve · 02-20-2003, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Proctors_Gambit
Granted Azrael was thinking of himself the whole time...
"Human, have you ever been to hell? Id rather not exist than go back to that. And if everyone has to go down with me then so be it"

When we look at it that way, I don't think Azrael is giving himself enough credit, here. It is only that other 20% who will "go down." He's doing the other 80% a huge favor. Apparently a few of us agree with that conclusion, but he doesn't mention that.

What an original perspective from wiploc. I think I'm falling in love! :notworthy

Wiploc · 02-20-2003, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Proctors_Gambit
Granted Azrael was thinking of himself the whole time...
"Human, have you ever been to hell? Id rather not exist than go back to that. And if everyone has to go down with me then so be it"
But Im sure the souls burning in pain in hell would have been rooting for him.

-Gambit

My point is that all moral people should be rooting for him. Even Christians, if they believe in the efficacy of prayer, should be praying that Christianity not be true.

There can't be anything worse than infinite torment. Therefore, if this world has a Hell in it, it is necesarily the worst of all possible worlds.
crc

Ensign Steve · 02-20-2003, 09:28 PM

Ideally, that would be the case. Unfortunately, I think a lot of Christians wouldn't see it that way. They consider their salvation to be an awesome gift. They are relieved to be among the chosen few to avoid that eternal torment. Maybe some mourn for unsaved relatives and strangers, and they feel so bad about it that they witness and try to save as many souls as possible. But if they can't reach everyone, that's too bad.

For god so LOVED (?!) the world that he gave his only begotten son ...

to save all mankind from the punishment he created for them? Don't do me any favors!

Tom Sawyer · 02-21-2003, 07:32 AM

I don't know if I'd consider Azreal the good guy, since he's willing to destroy everyone else in the universe in order to save himself. The fact that an argument can be made that more people than not would benefit from this action doesn't automatically imbue a moral sense of "goodness" on his actions, since his motivations are purely selfish and evil.

I would say that God is totally evil in this movie and is a fairly accurate representation of the Christian deity. Every problem in this movie and all the suffering of the "evil" characters are totally due to the fact that she believes that she is inerrant and the universe cannot exist otherwise. From Affleck and Damon's exile to the damnation of Azreal for not wanting to fight for moral reasons to the inane rules she forces her angels to live by, she is an unrelenting tyrant who holds the universe under her thumb. It's a frightening look at the Christian view of creation.

Ensign Steve · 02-21-2003, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by peteyh
I don't know if I'd consider Azreal the good guy, since he's willing to destroy everyone else in the universe in order to save himself. The fact that an argument can be made that more people than not would benefit from this action doesn't automatically imbue a moral sense of "goodness" on his actions, since his motivations are purely selfish and evil.

Religious beliefs aside, this boils back down to the moral school of thought that you adhere to. Do the ends justify the means? My mom volunteers at a homeless shelter because it looks good on her resume (purely selfish reason). Does her motive take away from the good? I say no, but that's because of my specific position on morality. Kantian's would indeed disagree, and rightfully so!

Quote:

It's a frightening look at the Christian view of creation.

Yes, Kevin Smith did an excellent job!

Jen

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02-20-2003, 05:02 PM	#11
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	Azrael is Gargamel's cat - from The Smurfs. I am filled with shame at knowing this. RD My reply : Hmm ... no wonder sounded familiar. Thank you. I wonder ... IF I name my son (assuming of course I met someone who will stay with me long enough to make some) Azrael, will he too be a bad person? Wonder also, can anyone actually say he is good or bad just because he has a certain type of name?

02-20-2003, 08:11 PM	#15
Proctors_Gambit Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Yeah it was loki who did the talking to the nun, at the start of the movie in the airport. by Christian standards, a good Majority of the world, Im thinking 80% or so, who are not "born again", will go to hell. They have no problem with this as long as they dont go there. Thinking in terms, however, of the greatest good for the greatest number, I think that destroying everything and ending the hopeless suffering of most of the souls in existance to be not such a bad thing. Granted Azrael was thinking of himself the whole time... "Human, have you ever been to hell? Id rather not exist than go back to that. And if everyone has to go down with me then so be it" But Im sure the souls burning in pain in hell would have been rooting for him. -Gambit

02-20-2003, 09:28 PM	#18
Ensign Steve Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Augusta, Georgia, United States Posts: 1,235	Ideally, that would be the case. Unfortunately, I think a lot of Christians wouldn't see it that way. They consider their salvation to be an awesome gift. They are relieved to be among the chosen few to avoid that eternal torment. Maybe some mourn for unsaved relatives and strangers, and they feel so bad about it that they witness and try to save as many souls as possible. But if they can't reach everyone, that's too bad. For god so LOVED (?!) the world that he gave his only begotten son ... to save all mankind from the punishment he created for them? Don't do me any favors!

02-21-2003, 07:32 AM	#19
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	I don't know if I'd consider Azreal the good guy, since he's willing to destroy everyone else in the universe in order to save himself. The fact that an argument can be made that more people than not would benefit from this action doesn't automatically imbue a moral sense of "goodness" on his actions, since his motivations are purely selfish and evil. I would say that God is totally evil in this movie and is a fairly accurate representation of the Christian deity. Every problem in this movie and all the suffering of the "evil" characters are totally due to the fact that she believes that she is inerrant and the universe cannot exist otherwise. From Affleck and Damon's exile to the damnation of Azreal for not wanting to fight for moral reasons to the inane rules she forces her angels to live by, she is an unrelenting tyrant who holds the universe under her thumb. It's a frightening look at the Christian view of creation.

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