Carrie

Exodus 20 -- The 1st command is, “You shall have no other gods before me.” And the 2nd command is, “You shall not make for yourself an idol...” And Lev. 19:11 says “Do not lie.” So keeping this in mind, let's read about Aaron the priest.

Lev. 27:4 says that Aaron and his sons were to serve the Lord as priests. Exodus 32 says that while Moses was away a long time on the mountain, the Israelites asked Aaron to make them a god. So Aaron did.

(Would the Israelites really have been so stupid, after just hearing the 10 commandments and after becoming so afraid of God, who brought them out of Egypt?)

Well, Aaron had them give him their gold earrings and then he made an idol shaped like a calf by using a tool. Then the people said the calf was the god that brought them up out of Egypt.

Starting in vs. 7 - Then God found out about this of course, and God was mad at the people and wanted to destroy them. But Moses pleaded with God to relent (he had to ask God to take it easy), and so God did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

But then Moses went down the mountain and saw the calf and the celebrating for himself, and he was mad. So he asked Aaron what the people did to him that he led them into such great sin.

So Aaron told Moses that the people wanted him to make gods for them, and Aaron said that he asked them for their gold jewelry and he threw it all in the fire, and out came a calf! So Aaron made an idol and then lied about it.

Starting in vs. 25 - Moses saw that the people were out of control, so he said to the people, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him. Just the Levites (who were to be the priests of Israel). They were the only ones who were for the Lord. Them Moses told the Levites what God said to
do. The Levites were to go through the camp and kill his brother and friend and neighbor.

(So God decided to bring destruction on them after all, because Moses was mad. When Moses was not mad and asked God to take it easy, He did. I guess God won’t decide for himself what to do. He always wants to destroy, unless someone asks him not to. God doesn’t just decide to be merciful on his own in many cases).

So the Levites killed as commanded. About 3000 died that day (But Aaron, the very one who made the idol, and lied about it, on purpose, was not killed).

Starting in vs. 30 - The next day Moses told the people that they had committed a great sin, but he would go to the Lord and see if he could make atonement for their sin. So Moses asked God to forgive their sin. But the Lord said, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.” So God punished the people by striking them with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

So this time even asking God to take it easy didn’t work. And the people were struck with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made. But Aaron was not struck with the plague. So maybe it was okay for a priest to make an idol for SOMEONE ELSE (but that doesn’t seem right).

Moses didn’t get mad at Aaron because he didn’t know that Aaron made the calf himself by using a tool. So when God told Moses about the calf, God didn’t mention that Aaron made it. And Moses asked God to not bring disaster on the people, and that included Aaron.

But when Moses saw the calf himself, he was mad, but he didn’t know Aaron made it, so Moses was only mad at the people. I think that since Moses was only mad at the people, and not Aaron, God spared Aaron but had the people killed. And I think that is terrible.

Old Man

The story of the calf is the first time that "democracy" plays a significant part in the bible. The people vote that they want a god like the surrounding nations, and call upon Aaron to make it.

Aaron, being a naturally submissive fellow, and ready to obey the "sovereign will of the people", obeys their desire and makes the calf. The people then give themselves up to debauchery.

Sounds a bit like Tony Blair, the prime minister of England. Some years ago, he perceived that the people wanted to indulge in homosexuality with young boys, so he got Parliament to change the law and lower the age of criminality to 16, such that no-one would be committing a criminal offence if they engaged in homo-sexual acts with 16 years olds.

Anyway, its a good story to illustrate just how out of touch democracy is with the will of God. But history has often repeated itself. Think back to the debauched Roman Empire, and how God allowed it to be subdued by hoards of murdering barbarians.
Ever wondered why the 20th century, the age of "democracy" was filled by endless wars? Think back to the story of the golden calf, and now you'll begin to understand why.

The prospects for the future are certainly not great. But then, it seems to me, that the age of democracy is rather passe. Whereever I look nowadays, I see facists everywhere. Democracy is hardly evident in Britain, and I dare say not in the US either, which, like Britain, is largely ruled by unelected, and unaccountable, judges.

Carrie

Oh, so it's okay that Aaron did what the people wanted? Moses was the one who said, "What did you do to lead the people into such great sin?"

Today it would be like a pastor taking his congregation to a strip club, then giving them drugs and hookers. That pastor should be out of a job.

Democracy or no Democracy, it doesn't mean the leader should do whatever the people want. If Americans wanted to legalize murder, does that mean our government should okay it, and then be the first to start shooting people at random? No.

It's clear that Aaron sinned very badly, lied about it, and was not punished, but everyone else was!

What I was saying is that God will relent if someone asks him to, and will bring destruction if someone asks him to. Aaron got off because Moses did not ask God to bring the plague on him. God knew what Moses did not, yet God didn't decide for himself who to kill. God let Moses determine what was just. God knew what Aaron did, yet God did not show his justice. Therefore God is not just. It was unfair to strike down everyone else and not Aaron.

Most of the Bible cannot be justified in reality, however Christians will try to justify everything no matter what. They can't face the fact that it is impossible to justify. For example, why would it be okay for God to demand proof of virginity, when there is no such thing? And then if there was no proof, the woman had to be put to death?! I have not found a Christian yet who can justify that. They just say, "Oh well it must have been okay somehow."
Yeah, sure, right. Just like it's okay that some Muslim countries still do the same thing today.

Old Man

Nevertheless, it is quite clear that Aaron would never have sinned unless the people had come to him:


Exd 32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for [as for] this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.


It was the people who wanted to throw off the yoke of God, and Aaron was probably afraid that he would be killed at their hands if he did not do what they wanted.

Exd 32:23 For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for [as for] this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

Aaron was the first "democratic leader"!

I have much sympathy with your argument, however. But Aaron himself is not recorded as bowing down to the idol, or enaging in acts of debauchery, or any of the other sins that the Israelites committed at that time. Merely making a calf probably did not amount to worshipping it. The bowing down to the idol is obviously a much greater sin than making an idol with a dagger hanging over your neck.

Carrie

But is it not better to die for God than to sin so terribly?

And God said, "Do not MAKE an idol," which Aaron did.

And someone causing you to sin does not excuse it away.

It's all just a story anyway. I'm not saying the REAL God is terrible, if there is a God. Whatever God there might be, that God must be good, and not unfair. It just seems to me in MANY cases that the Bible's God is unfair, so I don't believe in him.

wordsmyth

I must have read the wrong bible because I thought Aaron made the idol before Moses returned with the 10 commandments.

Old Man

Yes, good point. Bear that in mind, Carrie. The law had not yet been instituted at that time.

I'll agree that Aaron was far from perfect. But no-one ever said he was.

And before you state "It's all just a story anyway", I'd ask you to produce one iota of evidence to back up that hypothesis.

Vorkosigan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Old Man
the law and lower the age of criminality to 16, such that no-one would be committing a criminal offence if they engaged in homo-sexual acts with 16 years olds.

You sound wistful, Old Man, almost as if you were a touch jealous.

Anyway, its a good story to illustrate just how out of touch democracy is with the will of God.

Hey, vox populi, vox dei, I thought.

But history has often repeated itself. Think back to the debauched Roman Empire, and how God allowed it to be subdued by hoards of murdering barbarians.

Yes, and after just 500 years of existence too. Maybe that demon you worship was just a bit slow in enforcing his will, eh?

Ever wondered why the 20th century, the age of "democracy" was filled by endless wars?

ROFL. Because of authoritarians who wanted to enforce their will on others, like Christians, Communsists, Muslims, etc. Ever wonder why the North Texas Church of Freethought never attacks the Austin Community Atheists? Why American Atheists and the American Humanist Association don't engage in pitched street battles like the various authoritarian groups do?

The prospects for the future are certainly not great. But then, it seems to me, that the age of democracy is rather passe. Whereever I look nowadays, I see facists everywhere.

I quite agree. Osama Bin Laden, George Bush, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and other hatemongers are much in evidence these days.

Democracy is hardly evident in Britain, and I dare say not in the US either, which, like Britain, is largely ruled by unelected, and unaccountable, judges.

You know, all Congress has to do is make law. It can overrule any judge in the land if it wants to. I think there are a few glitches in your understanding of things.

Vorkosigan

Carrie

Old Man,

So if they hadn't gotten the law yet, and didn't hear anything about idols yet, it wouldn't be okay to kill the people but not Aaron. Both sides did wrong.

You cannot prove the Bible is true. But can I prove these are just stories? Not me alone, but lots of people together can make a pretty good case against the truth of the Bible. Not to say that some of the stories aren't true. Which ones and how many, we can't know. That's the point. To say the Bible is the inerrant word of God, you have to believe all of it and say it's all from God. Because if one part is wrong, then how can you trust the rest? Like I said, it can't be the word of God because God would not make a girl show proof of virginity when there is no such thing. Also, with all the power Jesus supposedly had, he should have preached against slavery, but he did not. He had the chance to get the attention of the world, yet he said nothing. Martin Luther King stood up against it, but not Jesus. And don't go telling me that it wouldn't have been appropriate for the times and all the usual apologetics crap. Slavery is wrong, and always has been, yet Jesus said nothing and let it go on. That's not my God.

Jeremy Pallant

Do you apply this reasoning to religions other than Christianity, Old Man?