mike_decock

The more I consider Atheism and Theism, the more I am convinced that it boils down to a matter of personality, rather than having a purely rational reason for being one or the other.

For the most part, people seem to believe or disbelieve in God based on emotional reasons. The testimonies of Christians who have found happiness is their conversion is strikingly similar to those who have found happiness in deconversion.

If I consider my own experience, Christianity had me stuck in a cycle of self-loathing that dissipated as I reduced my church involvement and disappeared when I became an atheist. Other ex-Christians have related similar testimonies.

I never really had an issue with self-esteem. I always thought I was a fairly decent, intelligent person but my religion taught me I was a worthless sinner. I hated myself because I didn't feel the need for God and couldn't fit myself into the Christian mold.

According the testimonies of many Christians, they often come from a state of feeling worthless to having Christianity be a source of redemption, meaning and purpose in their life.

In short, it appears that atheists, in general, don't seem to have much of an issue finding an internal source to define their identity while theists have a need to find an external source to define their identity.

The irony of this is that theists spend much effort defining the identity of their god. In essence, they are externalizing and projecting their internal identity onto an external identity which in turn, identifies them.

This seems like an odd mechanism, but we can see it paralleled in other behaviors. Sometimes people talk to themselves (not necessarily audibly) in order to work out a problem. They'll use themselves as a "sounding board". People will also talk to others to work out a problem. More often than not, it's not the advice-giver that provides the solution, but it is the advice-seeker, who in the process of verbalizing their problem, presents themselves with the solution.

So, is theism just the result of a personality trait based in low self-esteem and the need to externalize internal issues?

-Mike...

christ-on-a-stick

Greetings Mike,

My (first) .02 while I digest the rest... I definitely think that theism often causes low self-esteem, and can also exascerbate low self-esteem. A belief system based at its core on the principle that you are inherently sinful, bad, unworthy etc., drilled into the head for years especially starting at a young age, is extremely damaging IMO.

More later... interesting thread though!

Tom Sawyer

While theism can exascerbate self-esteem, it can also do the opposite.

There are a lot of people who gain a lot of strength from their faith and knowing that God/Allah/Buddha or whoever is watching out for them and loves them makes them feel really good. Having a place in a universe that has a meaning gives them the emotional backing that they need to go about their lives. When things are overwhelming, they know that it's all for a greater good and no matter how bad things get for them, there is a higher reward waiting for them if they are just faithful and patient.

The issue of whether or not it's healthy to base one's self-worth of something that's made up is a different matter. But in terms of theism causing low self-esteem, I think that more often than not it does the exact opposite. It gives hope and strength to millions of people and allows them to live productive, happy lives. I don't know of any studies to back up either side of this argument, but most people in this country are theists and most people are fairly happy and around half of them have higher than average self-esteem so I don't think there's a lot to back up the idea that theism causes self-esteem other than a few personal stories (no offense mike).

Despite all the problems with theism, I think that more often than not, it does a lot more good than bad in the world.

Jamie_L

I wonder sometimes how many people would need a place in the universe if they hadn't been raised with the notion that everything has a place in the universe.

I think my slip into atheism was aided by the fact that I never felt this need for a place in a universe that has a grand purpose. I think I lacked this need because I was never really taught that I should have this need. I wonder if the people who do have this need have it just because it was drilled into them to the point that they can't abandon the idea.

Not saying that's the way it is, but I wonder sometimes...

Jamie

beastmaster

Mike, I agree that most Judeo-Xn theism is based on emotional reasoning rather than a cold dispassionate analysis of the evidence. And I think you are right that a significant subset of Xns are caught in a cycle of self-loathing. I know one Catholic who is the most guilt-ridden person I've ever met -- I've seen him at times almost trembling with guilt.

But the majority of Xn theists that I have met don't dig that deep into their own theology. Most think of J.C. as their invisible buddy and that's enough for them. I have plenty of Catholic friends and acquaintances who are happy and optimistic, sunny and open-minded people. Which is not to say that they are shallow in their faith -- they just don't direct their attention to the negative baggage that some may think is a part of their religion.

And who's to say they are wrong? Isn't choosing your religious beliefs essentially arbitrary? Why not just suck up the "good" parts and dispense with the rest?

mike_decock

I know we're kind of dealing with a chicken/egg scenario and I'm not looking to establish causation, per se. Theism can either present a solution (as you described) or become a problem (as witnessed by myself and other deconverts).

Do theists really have high self-esteem? They attribute all their abilities and skills to an external provider. They don't esteem themselves, they esteem God and identify themselves with God as the source of their abilities. It's subtly but fundamentally different than those who take credit for their own achievements.

-Mike...

mike_decock

No disagreement there. When I was debating my beliefs with my father (Pentecostal Missionary), he got to a point where he said "Most simple people don't ask themselves those kinds of questions. I don't have answers for you. I'm a minister, not a philosopher."

Even my Christian friends would avoid me at times because I was too "deep" for them.

I'm not trying to elevate my own intellect, but I had to admit to myself that I simply am more intelligent and delve more deeply into my own theology* and philosophy than the majority of people. I spent much of my life wishing that I could simply accept what I was taught and no longer feel like an outsider.

*Is atheism considered theology?

I'm really not trying to make a judgement on right or wrong. I only think it's wrong when people work to impose their beliefs on others.

I think people generally inherit their beliefs, and as long as they are happy, they don't question them. I really don't have a problem with that. Ultimately, people believe what makes them happy.

-Mike...

Shake

For me I don't think having faith or not had much effect either way on my self-esteem. I never let the guilt get to me, of course I attended a fairly liberal Lutheran church, and guilt wasn't their big thing anyway. After de-converting, I had my ups and downs of self-esteem that had little to do with personal faith. To me, the act of going to church was more of a social thing anyway, and the more you went, the more people you got to meet, so it was kind of like a popularity contest. I was never one of the "in" crowd in school, but I developed a healthy attitude about it, and I practically shun the spotlight. I mean, it's nice to that you're cared about and have people enjoy your company, but you don't need to be super popular to have that. My own deconversion started in my mid-teens, an awkward age to be sure. There are plenty of other factors that are much more important to kids of that age group that influence self-esteem.

It's been a long, slow road to my embracing my atheism and being comfortable enough with it to open about it. (Thanks, II!) During that time, I've graduated college, joined the military, gotten married, had a child, left the military, and moved home. I'm happy with how things have gone, and with who I am right now. That's not saying I don't strive to still better myself, which is part of the reason I'm here. I've learned a lot in my time here at II, and I love learning, so I reckon I'll stay for quite a while to come.

Beastmaster talked about xians not digging into their own theology. I wonder if some of them have a clue that they might not like what they find if they dig ... that's what happened when I started digging. It was a major reason why I'm no longer an xian. Many churches don't teach you to dig. They teach you to listen and accept blindly what you are being told. Oh sure, they have some classes where they'll ask some questions to get you to think, but it's some weak argument that they've already got a nice answer that tries to comfort you and make you trust in someone else rather than your own ideas.

christ-on-a-stick

Tom Sawyer - Must...resist... argh, this could be a good discussion but I don't want to derail this thread. Watch for a new topic though coming soon to a GRD forum near you!

Anyhoo - Excellent point, Mike. I think it's a difference that makes a *big* difference...

As an example, I can think of lots of times I've heard theists who attribute their successes, etc. to God, feel that in times of hardship or failure, it's because they were doing something wrong (with re: to their "relationship with God") - not praying hard enough or the right way, not "serving the Lord" enough, etc...

Whereas in a difficult situation the non-theist is more able to
realize that A) sometimes shit just happens and you're not being "punished" and B) if you do fail in something because of your own shortcomings, then it's up to *you* to do what you need to do to improve yourself or your situation.

emotional

Awww, how cute... materialists patting themselves on their backs! Gives the warm fuzzies to be above all the non-materialist rabble, doesn't it?