Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Zar · 05-22-2003, 04:58 PM

In an older thread, To all you Hawks, I have a question?, I made the following statement about the debacle this Iraq war and its intelligence effort has become:

Quote:

I'm mad about this, but to show I'm a good sport, I'll give them 3-6 months before I really blow a gasket, though again, some important problems have already been created.

This was more than a month ago, when it already seemed like things were tanking big time.

Now, we have a further deterioration of the situation, as summarized in this article from the Baltimore Sun.

Quote:

It now appears that the so-called "clear and present danger" of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction (WMD) did not exist and that French and German critics were correctly skeptical of the U.S. argument for the use of force.

...

As a result, these teams are now searching for evidence of Saddam Hussein's crimes against humanity, Iraqi covert actions abroad and even the theft of Jewish antiquities from Iraqi museums - a far cry from the artifacts of WMD.

Lame, lame, lame. My "gasket" is just about ready to blow.

Bill · 05-22-2003, 09:07 PM

You ought to really blow a gasket at what the US did during the war with respect to known Iraqi nuclear materials. First, read this web story, which includes these paragraphs:

Quote:

There used to be a whole lot of radioactive material at Tuwaitha. United Nations inspectors identified it, stored it, sealed it. There were roughly 500 tons of uranium, of which about 1.8 tons was low-enriched stuff. There was also cobalt 60 and strontium 90. All in all, the inspectors found some 228 sources of radioactivity.

Then the United States came along. During the war, U.S. troops on the ground didn�t know quite what they were supposed to do at the facility and much of the radioactive material was looted. No one outside the United States government is sure how much�and those inside probably don�t know the precise amount either. The IAEA, the single organization with an inventory and experience on the site, is one of the U.N. agencies that isn�t being allowed back in by the Americans. Nor is the agency being told what the U.S. military on the scene has or has not found�...

In its print edition last week, Newsweek reported that, when the US troops arrived at this Iraqi nuclear facility, they found some Iraqi guards holding off a mass of looters. So, what did those US troops do? Why, they disarmed the Iraqi guards, sent them home, and then left on their next mission, leaving all of this tightly-controled and carefully cataloged nuclear material for the looters to make whatever use of it they wished. Here is what Newsweek said about that:

Quote:

Some of the lapses are frightening. The well-known Al Tuwaitha Nuclear Research Center, about 12 miles south of Baghdad, had nearly two tons of partially enriched uranium, along with significant quantities of highly radioactive medical and industrial isotopes, when International Atomic Energy Agency officials made their last visit in January. By the time U.S. troops arrived in early April, armed guards were holding off looters�but the Americans only disarmed the guards, Al Tuwaitha department heads told NEWSWEEK. �We told them, �This site is out of control. You have to take care of it�,� says Munther Ibrahim, Al Tuwaitha�s head of plasma physics. �The soldiers said, �We are a small group. We cannot take control of this site�.� As soon as the Americans left, looters broke in. The staff fled; when they returned, the containment vaults� seals had been broken, and radioactive material was everywhere.

U.S. officers say the center had already been ransacked before their troops arrived. They didn�t try to stop the looting, says Colonel Madere, because �there was no directive that said do not allow anyone in and out of this place.� Last week American troops finally went back to secure the site. Al Tuwaitha�s scientists still can�t fully assess the damage; some areas are too badly contaminated to inspect. �I saw empty uranium-oxide barrels lying around, and children playing with them,� says Fadil Mohsen Abed, head of the medical-isotopes department. Stainless-steel uranium canisters had been stolen. Some were later found in local markets and in villagers� homes. �We saw people using them for milking cows and carrying drinking water,� says Ibrahim. The looted materials could not make a nuclear bomb, but IAEA officials worry that terrorists could build plenty of dirty bombs with some of the isotopes that may have gone missing. Last week NEWSWEEK visited a total of eight sites on U.N. weapons-inspection lists. Two were guarded by U.S. troops. Armed looters were swarming through two others. Another was evidently destroyed many years ago. American forces had not yet searched the remaining three.

So, it would seem that the US troops negligently caused the very sort of a nuclear proliferation that they were supposedly sent in there to prevent!

If that doesn't make your gasket blow over this war, then nothing will.

== Bill

Zar · 05-22-2003, 11:09 PM

Bill,

H-O-L-Y S-H-I-T.

The conduct of the United States has been just...just...

It is indescribable. Irresponsible. Corrupt. Barbarous.

Get them out of our country.

Hot Karl · 05-22-2003, 11:12 PM

i'm glad to be enlightened on the situation from the both of you, but i almost wish i didn't know. i honestly wonder how many years this is taking off of my life.

George Oilwell · 05-23-2003, 04:10 AM

Don't wait 3 to 6 months, by then nobody will care.
If you're going to have a blowup about it, do it now.

Syphor · 05-23-2003, 06:35 AM

I'd like to ask the hawks a question - If no WMD are found in Iraq by the end of the year would you still consider the war legally justifiable?

simian · 05-23-2003, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Syphor
I'd like to ask the hawks a question - If no WMD are found in Iraq by the end of the year would you still consider the war legally justifiable?

I don't think this is a question of evidence. I would not think those who fully supported the war are going to be swayed by what is found/not found. "Saddam was EEEVIL"TM Mass graves prove it was necessary, gold toilets prove it, in short, anything will prove it.

I say that for a very simple reason - it would take overwhelming evidence of immenent attack to convince me the latest invasion was justified - the mere presence of WMDs would not do it. (as an aside, I feel the Afghanistan war was not justified - again, no time for diplomacy to work, even what little was tried. Yes, the Taliban was terrible - it had been terrible for years before Bush took notice of it. Until he had faith-based evidence of Taliban involvement (in the WTC attack), he could not care less how the Afghans were treated - Hindus had to wear yellow swatches of cloth to identify themselves as such. It should have been an ongoing effort, not a sudden kill, kill, kill event)

Who it may sway would be those in the middle.

Simian

(edited to clarify a couple of points)

111111 · 05-23-2003, 02:48 PM

Unfortunately, most Americans have already forgotten the issue of the WMD. For them, toppling a brutal dictator in an illegal war propped up on a false claim makes it alllllll OK.

Bill · 05-23-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 111111
Unfortunately, most Americans have already forgotten the issue of the WMD. For them, toppling a brutal dictator in an illegal war propped up on a false claim makes it alllllll OK.

Well, then, why hasn't Bush attacked North Korea? After all, their dictator is much nastier (if not certifiably insane) and has more menacing WMDs than Saddam had.

Or why not the third member of the "evil axis," Iran? While their dictator (Ayatollah Ali Khamenei) isn't as demonstrably "evil" as either Iraq's or North Korea's, Iran has admitted having al Queda operatives in their country, and has admitted having an advanced nuclear program (those pesky WMDs again).

And Syria can't escape notice, as it is still ruled by a Baath Party of its own, and also has a heriditary dictator-for-life (the son of former President Assad). Syria was clearly in cahoots with Iraq on any number of deals, including helping Saddam get around the sanctions by pumping oil into Syria which should not have been pumped there. (And that sure helped out the old Syrian economy, didn't it?

)

The only rational answer is that Iraq was an easy target (after having been under sactions and a military embargo for over a dozen years), plus Iraq can supply all the oil that Bush and his cronies need to feed themselves and their followers. Iran has oil too, but would be a far harder target to conquor (being much larger, having a more-dedicated army, and having more-modern weapons to boot). Neither Syria nor North Korea have anything of value for the Bush gang, so they get to keep going with just an occasional tongue-lashing.

Poor Saddam just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If only Gore had won Florida, then this year's grudge match of the century could never have been held.

== Bill

slept2long · 05-23-2003, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 111111
Unfortunately, most Americans have already forgotten the issue of the WMD. For them, toppling a brutal dictator in an illegal war propped up on a false claim makes it alllllll OK.

You give people to much credit. People know they had no chance of stopping this so they develop cognitive dissonance on this issue. ANY excuse Bush gives will be adopted by the public at large.

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05-22-2003, 11:09 PM	#3
Zar Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Chicago, IL USA Posts: 3,477	Bill, H-O-L-Y S-H-I-T. The conduct of the United States has been just...just... It is indescribable. Irresponsible. Corrupt. Barbarous. Get them out of our country.

05-22-2003, 11:12 PM	#4
Hot Karl Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 842	i'm glad to be enlightened on the situation from the both of you, but i almost wish i didn't know. i honestly wonder how many years this is taking off of my life.

05-23-2003, 04:10 AM	#5
George Oilwell Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Woop woop Posts: 3,847	Don't wait 3 to 6 months, by then nobody will care. If you're going to have a blowup about it, do it now.

05-23-2003, 06:35 AM	#6
Syphor Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 991	I'd like to ask the hawks a question - If no WMD are found in Iraq by the end of the year would you still consider the war legally justifiable?

05-23-2003, 02:48 PM	#8
111111 Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: USA Posts: 35	Unfortunately, most Americans have already forgotten the issue of the WMD. For them, toppling a brutal dictator in an illegal war propped up on a false claim makes it alllllll OK.

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