dantonac

Color me an atheist who isn't bothered by vouchers.

In the US as well as most nations education is subsidized.

Great, but why does the service provider need to be the state?

The argument that most private schools are religious is kind of a bogus argument. Today that's true because churches are about the only ones who can make a go of it. Who else really wants to compete with the schools system taxpayers have already funded and their kids can attend for free?

Today the money trail is as follows: all citizens->government->school

Why would it be wrong to change it to: all citizens->government->parents.

If this were done then there would be incentive for non religious for profit schools to open up. Establish what the per child cost will be, give that out to everyone in the form of a voucher and let them spend it at the school of their choosing.

I dislike the idea of government run schools because everyone and their mother tries to get their doctrine taught there from religious fundis to whacked out liberals and everyone inbetween due to the centralization of authority.

Schools are for academics, not indoctrination into philosophies.

Buffman

keitht

My premise is that the parents have the overriding right to control the type of education their children should receive, even if that education is being paid for through the state.

You seem to forget that "rights" engender "responsibilities." I don't see the government telling parents that they don't have the "right" to educate their children...just as long as they do it in a "responsible" way. You must be a very responsible parent or you wouldn't be defending parental rights as vociferously as you are. What a shame that all parents aren't as caring, capable and involved as you are. (One of my local friends just attended a parent-teacher get together. She and one other parent were the only ones to come.)

If you don't agree with this premise, then you've removed the parents and installed the state as the parents.

Are you so sure that the parents haven't removed themselves and allowed the state to fill the responsibility gap?

It is a monopoly controlled by the state and the parents have virtually no say and no choice in the system.

How many school board meetings have you attended? Which school board members have you supported? I have asked you repeatedly to provide the evidence that the overall scores of privately educated students are significantly better than those of the publicly educated student. (Even with the private schools able to cherry-pick students and not adhere to many of the federal/state/local rules/requirements foisted on the public schools. Public schools are tasked with educating everyone...even those that don't speak the native language.)

A system with no choice and no alternative is poorly designed. It makes no difference whether certain parts of the monopoly actually work well now. It is an inherent characteristic of all monopolies to be inefficient.

Oh my! Are you suggesting that humans are poorly designed? Are you suggesting that the 95,000 public schools are all inefficient? Have you ever attempted to design an efficient course of modern curriculum for K1-12 that would guarantee that all the students would remain in school and graduate with the necessary knowledge and skills to be responsible, participating. members of our society? Please forgive me if I am wrong, but it doesn't seem as though you have ever spent any time learning what the characteristics of a desirable education really are...or should be. Neither do you appear to have spent much time determining the inherent costs of the desired education. Every public school board across this country struggles with the associated costs of providing and education to every student. ( "Expenditures include those for instruction, administration, operation & maintenance, student transportation, food services, support services, adult education, and community services." --- And we mustn't forget the expenses for the purchase of property, the design and construction of teaching facilities, and required initial outfitting. And we haven't even touched on the planning issues which must attempt to determine the number of new student seat requirements required in any given district depending on economic and population growth factors. It seems to me that you are talking about theories not the practical, every day, application of those theories.

I'm curious how you would feel if we still had today the public schools of fifty years ago. Wouldn't it have been nice if O'Hair and Schempp, and others that felt the same way, could have just walked out the door with their money to find or form another school that didn't offend their beliefs? Are you so sure that the public schools couldn't go back to the old days? If there's choice in the system, then would we have to worry?

I honestly don't know how to answer such questions. I am concerned about providing the best, most accurate, education possible to the every child...regardless of their parent's religious or philosophical belief systems. If we went back 50 years ago, the national motto would be E Pluribus Unum, the Flag Pledge would not contain "under God" in it, our paper money would not be imprinted with "In God We Trust," TV in its infancy and PCs something in a sci-fi story. Fifty years ago I had already graduated from public high school and moved on to college. I do not recall any of my teachers attempting to push their religious beliefs on the students. The natural science classes never discussed creationism/ID. The citizens of the city in which I grew up got their religious indoctrinations in the local churches/synagogues/houses of worship/homes...not the public schools.

rmadison

No it isn't.

Of the (approximately) 27,000 private schools in the U.S. (serving 5.3 Million students) 79% have a religious affiliation. Which means, 4.2 Million students in private schools are being indoctrinated to "toe the party line".

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2002...ivate/sa01.asp

And, if you don't think students ARE being indoctrinated, take a look at the priorities of private school principals:

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2002...asp?popup=true

Yep. You read that right. They place a higher value on religious development than academic excellence.


Exactly. So why vouch for vouchers?


Can anyone say, "Segregation"?

Buffman

dantonac

Why would it be wrong to change it to: all citizens->government->parents.

In "Church and State in America," Edwin S. Gaustad (Chap. 5) discusses 'The Establishment Clause: Public Schools.' He provides the elements of the kind of historical backgroud that might help you to better understand how our educational system has come to be as it is.

In " A Memorial and Remonstrance," James Madison clearly states the problem of mixing a tax supported government with any religious dogma.

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?" -James Madison, 1785.

Perhaps these will give you a better feel for the real issues concerning vouchers. If not, you will find the voucher issue discussed many times in the C-SS archives.

http://www.tasb.org/advocacy/voucher_resolution.shtml

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/vouposit.htm

rmadison

He can't show you. The evidence is, there is no evidence that private = better.


Too important to be parenthetical.

Public schools are mandated to provide special education, counseling, dropout prevention, vo-tech, alternative education, bilingual education, student transportation, healy & phsycological services, and food services.

Private schools aren't required to provide ANY of that.

Moreover, the accountability to which private schools is held is pathetic.

http://www.aft.org/research/Vouchers/trackrecord.htm


Regulation of private and religious schools across the states is minimal, resulting in almost complete autonomy with respect to these schools' admissions policies and practices; who teaches and what they teach; whether and/or how they test students; how they handle finances and records; and what information they disclose to parents (almost no public reporting is required).

If I were running a private school, I'd charge about 10-20% more than the voucher.

Then I'd sell the parent on the school: You want a better education for your child, yes? You want a better school for them, yes? Well, how can you expect to get better at no cost? You get what you pay for!

And that's even if the cost to educate private school students were cheaper than public school students. Again, the evidence doesn't support this:

When the different programs of public and voucher schools was accounted for in Cleveland, there was no evidence of cost effectiveness in the voucher schools; in Milwaukee, voucher schools received about $1,000 more per student than comparable public schools while performing no better.

Buffman

bfos,

Thank you for attempting to provide the facts about the so-called "Parental Choice" voucher propaganda.

I can't remember how many times I have posted the URLs that support every claim you have just posted.... and a great deal more. Obviously those that support vouchers : 1)don't read them; 2) Read them but don't comprehend what they have read; 3)Read them, comprehend what they have read, but elect to ignore the verifiable evidence; 4) Have their own agenda based on factors other than Education; or 5) Simply know very little about what is involved with any successful, national, education program.

rmadison

You're welcome. I've enjoyed reading your comments as well.

Public education is something I am very passionate about. In fact, I'm proud to be passionate about it.