Ysabella

My sister has become rather Jesus-y; mostly I avoid discussing religion with her (although I try to be nice and polite, I did get her a <a href="http://www.mcphee.com/bigindex/current/10746.html" target="_blank">Jesus Action Figure</a>). However, she and I post on a forum (for women with PCOS) where there are a lot of Jesus-y gals, and she recently snuck in her opinion that "Christians are really losing their religious freedom in the States." In the past one example she gave was a church that was asked to tone down its large crucifix, because it overlooked a city park, but her new example was the Connecticut case of the <a href="http://www.ctd.uscourts.gov/Opinions/070501.HBF.Murphy3.pdf" target="_blank">Murphy family versus the Zoning commission of New Milford</a>. She claimed that "a family had to fight for their right to pray at home."

I read what I linked above, the court documents, and I was actually impressed by how the court fervently protected the family's rights, and how recent legislation (RLIUPA) protected them. (The case was a nuisance suit brought by the neighbors because of cars cluttering up the cul-de-sac every Sunday, plus the noise. It was a hassle for this family to go to court, but the laws defended them soundly as soon as they did.)

But if you read the summaries on various other sites (such as <a href="http://www.aclj.org/news/nr_001204b.asp" target="_blank">here</a> or <a href="http://www.nljonline.com/February2001/rfn.htm" target="_blank">here</a>, scroll down) as I did when searching for information on what she was talking about, you read a lot of Xtians declaiming dramatically about how the right to pray at home was brought under fire (there are also Libertarians discussing how zoning laws are getting out of control, and some articles where people recognize the religious protections that came into play in this case). I get the feeling that some groups really WANT to feel persecuted (and perhaps therefore extra righteous).

Looking around for more examples, I found <a href="http://www.nljonline.com/February2001/cpew.htm" target="_blank">this</a> which seems like a good example. And I've gotten the feeling that many people think the lack of prayer in schools is some kind of persecution. So I'm starting to feel as if some Xtians think that separating church from state is not only wrong, but some kind of persecution?!

(My apologies if this is a repeat of a previous topic - I did do a search, and I'm pretty sure no one has discussed the Milford thing, which is an interesting example. But I am a newbie here, so tell me if I'm wrong.)

[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: Ysabella ]

[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: Ysabella ]</p>

lpetrich

Seems to me that they are simply projecting their wanting to persecute others.

Beelzebub

Christians may be many things, but they are not dumb. Persecution works. It gets you sympathy from the public and a free ride to be militant (only defending myself!). It's also in answer to freethinkers who actually are persecuted by our entire culture. Even tho something like 86% of Americans identify themselves as christian, being persecuted sounds so much better then being the persecuter. In a way it's like the psycological symptom of projection, where you accuse others of your own faults.
The real problem is the loss of control. After all, it used to be that all schoolchildren said christian prayers before school, all public squares had creches, all football games (at least in Texas) were of great interest to Jesus. Now, with not only an increase in non-believers, but an increase in believing non-christians,they see thier soveriegnity slipping. Evidently they see not being top dog as persecution. Good luck with your sister. My sister is telling me she is a "Jew for Jesus". I tell her that means she is a christian, which she denies. Go figure.

livius drusus

It's clear that the neighbors would have filed suit nomatter what the defendants were doing, as long as cars and noise were involved. Sunday brunch-n-orgy parties would have been just as unwelcome as Sunday prayer meetings.

Xtian persecution complexes are a hold-over from the overpublicized martyr days of early xianity, and are frankly laughable in the US today. Xtians on this very board have claimed persecution when taken to task by unbelievers friendly, neutral and virulent. They seem to have a very low standard of persecution nowadays.

jordan_tar

When you're in a minority, you feel like you're in the right. You feel daring. You feel like a martyr. In short, these people want to be persecuted, because in a society which is at best welcoming or at worst lukewarm towards your particular cult, what chance do you have of excitement? of the sense of peril and welcoming those who are right into your shady minority?

It makes me think of these pathetic "Christian punks" - who are only Christian because they want to oppose the cultural mainstream. They've got their priorities screwed up, of course...

Vorkosigan

Persecution is extremely vital to the spread of a religion and the maintenance of communal identity and doctrinal authority.

1) Persecution validates the importance of the persecuted. Hey, look, the government has selected us for persecution! Others on the outside may identify with, establish links to, or be impressed by, such recognition.

2) Persecution enables churches to enforce doctrinal authority. When there is freedom, churches fission with monotonous regularity. Under persecution, sheep who leave the fold leave its protection, and are even more vulnerable. In that case, the Church cleverly lets the government do its doctrinal enforcement.

3) Persecution generates converts. The persecuted religion acquires an attractive anti-government cachet and an anti-government political identity. Persecution gives meaning to what otherwise might be dull lives in an authoritarian society. The fastest-growing Xtian populations are in China and Vietnam, where almost everyone is religious (fact: communist China has a lower percentage of atheists than the USA!); in the freer Chinese societies outside China (Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore and Macao) irreligion is common.

4) Persecution attracts a steady flow of funds to the parent organizations. The drumroll of harassment and killing in China ensures that the duped continue to give money in the US to religious groups there.

5) Persecution gives parent organizations political clout in the US. If China would stop persecuting Christians, the Religious Reich would have no case before the US Congress.

All in all, persecution, especially of Christian groups overseas, is so useful that if it did not exist, it would almost certainly be invented.

Michael

d'naturalist

Welcome Nederlander. (It's always nice to hear from other parts of the world)

Keep in mind who you're dealing with here. This is a religion that teaches it's followers that they were created special by a "supreme being" and are, as a result, the second most important beings in existence. The most important beings in existence, if you consider that they often claim that their creator does not exist **in** existence. Up until Nicolas Copernicus came along, they quite literally believed that the entire universe revolved around them. Talk about racking up those frequent flyer miles on the ego-trip of life.

For these folks, being denied their "right" to dominate the world and tell everyone else how to live must feel like persecution. In all fairness, though, I think the average, educated xtian (in a free society) is above this line of thinking. On the other hand, to quote Dennis Miller: That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Euromutt

Incidentally, from the <a href="http://www.nljonline.com/February2001/rfn.htm" target="_blank">NLJ Online</a> link that Ysabella posted comes this quote: Note that ACLU wasn't involved, the soi-disant ACLJ was representing the Murphies. This is <a href="http://www.aclj.org/about/aboutm.asp" target="_blank">"American Centre for Law and Justice" mission statement</a>; note how easy it is to make a typo which makes it look like "even those civil liberties types" are backing the Xians? Even if you misread (the J and the U are not dissimilar at a glance) you might get that impression. Accident? I doubt it.
I find this ACLJ pretty scary - "committed to the defense of Judeo-Christian values", "dedicated to the promotion of pro-liberty, pro-life and pro-family causes"
In uncharitable terms (which I would never use myself), the fundy shyster A-Team. I wonder who pays their bills?

It's actually screwed-up that there is such a piece of legislation as the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act; to draw a parallel with Livius Drusus' post, any other activity (Tupperware parties, meetings of the New Milford Elvis Impersonators' Guild, etc.) would never have received that protection, they'd have had to cease and desist or suffer the consequences.
Hey, what makes my pursuit of happiness less valid? I want to play heavy metal on my lawn on sunday afternoons, why isn't there a Congressional act protecting my right to free expression? (this is academic, since I don't live in the US... yet)
But as you all point out, it's easier to pretend to be persecuted so you can feel righteous. Sickening.

[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: Euromutt ]</p>

daemon

This is particularly an issue in Christianity by how the Bible analyzes humanity. The Bible clearly divides humanity into two camps: the "world" and the believing community; this seems to strongly imply the believers are a minority, but also that the world is against them. Furthermore, it sets up expectations of persecution, and goes so far as to extoll the persecuted status. Therefore, Christians are paranoid with the belief that the world is out to get them, and many additionally feed off that sense of persecution, because it means they're True Christians[TM].

Euromutt

Good point. That particular point of view seems justified if you're Old Testament-era Jewish, though...