Muffinstuffer

Well, of course I can't really completely erase any sign or shadow of my faith from what I write....and I'm sure you recognize this. It's a part of my life, just as some of my friends atheistic/agnostic/wiccan/LDS lifestyles are their own.

Well, you will notice that I've refrained from witnessing as well.

Rhea

If your purpose was discussion, I'd say it was a great thing!



Hey, I have an idea. Why don't you pray for the other christians to become better christians? (which is to say, I suppose, if you'll indulge me in a little artful prose, why don't you pray for christianity to start working correctly?) I think that'd be a GREAT prayer, and one with presumably better chance of succeeding because god's more like to grant prayers in behalf of christians and it's people who are needed to convince people (if god could do it she would have long ago, I should think), so assuming prayers to god work best on god's people, then this would be a kick-ass strategy, it seems.

In fact, you could even start witnessing to them, about how being kind, tolerant and inoffensive is the best way to win souls, and of course they'd _have_ to listen politely because you're talking about something they love a lot, right? Meanwhile, while you're all witnessing to each other about how to recruit by example (see "his example tempts me"), then the rest of us are left in peace and we let our guard down and feel less tense and the insidious happiness exuding from a loving example starts to seep in...

This is worthy of a sermon, I think.


Glad! I happen to be the happiest person I know! People often tell me to stop smiling.


I try to be polite - I'm a work in progress. Luckily, I'm forgiven when I stray. Forgiven by my fellow humans, that is.

Muffinstuffer

Now THERE is something we can agree on, at least to a point anyways.....I'm of the mindset (and this has nothing to do with my Christian beliefs) that even if we all practiced it, there will always be people who are different, who will want more, or will think their way is better, etc. A few always end up making things bad for the many. But we'd be one heck of a lot closer to a much better world.

Muffinstuffer

It was. And that, there is definitely plenty of.

Careful now. If your head gets TOO big you won't be able to fit it through the door.

Seriously, I do. You may have heard this before, and you may disagree, but for the most part, where Christians start to go wrong, is when they stray from the teachings of Christ. I know this sounds stupid and simple, but it is true.

For instance....the treatment of homosexuals in churches. I don't know many churches who will allow people known to be homosexuals in the doors of the church because it is 'wrong.' Of course, as a Christian, I agree that it's not something God approves of. But so what? If you will forgive the use of this word, a 'sin' is a sin is a sin. If you kill someone with a butter knife, or a machine gun, one may be more violent, but both make him just as dead. Similarly, if I insult someone, OR kill them, both of them are wrong...both are a 'sin.' Neither is any better or worse. Sure, in the eyes of humans, they are, of course, because one KILLS you and one does not. But both of them proceed out of the minds and hearts of people, and both of them show evidence of ill will towards others, and that's what I/we get judged on....not what the actual sin is, but how we respond to it. (Please forgive the 'preaching.' I'm getting to the point. )

My point is that Christians largely do NOT do what we are supposed to do today...which is to 'hate the sin and love the sinner', so to speak. That is EXACTLY what Jesus did. He didn't emulate the behavior of those he ministered to, but neither did he shy away from them because He thought he was 'better' than they were. By virtue of the fact that I do things wrong, insult people occasionally, screw up and swear, etc., I am no better than anyone else, so I have no right to judge others. As a Christian I am supposed to help my fellow brothers/sisters, and I'm sure you realize this, but holding people accountable to the standards which they profess themselves to be held to, and prejudging people, are two different things.

Anyways, I do in fact do this...I do pray that the Christians (myself included) will follow the teachings of Christ/Christianity as closely as possible, and actually EMPLOY them as they were meant to be employed, so that if nothing else, the blame will fall completely and solely on their faith, and not on themselves.

Haha I try to be polite as well. I fail quite a lot. Especially in traffic.

Rhea

Interesting that you should bring this up. Because it is by this discussion, "holding people accountable to the standards which they profess themselves to be held to, " that we usually hear the old, "Christians aren't perfect, but" staple.

Which is usually a conversation-ender to any attempt of the non-christian toward "holding people accountable to the standards which they profess themselves to be held to, " . Kind of a catch 22, isn't it. Only a christian can attempt to hold a christian accountable.

So please do promote that sermon because it's exceedingly tedious to know they are not fulfulling their own standards (which they are trying to "sell" to us) while we are being considered "unqualified" to remind them of that. So tedious, as you can imagine!

Once you're all done witnessing to each other about fulfilling the standards your are trying to sell to us,. THEN we can talk about us politely being open to witnessing.

(P.S. I have a handicap door, so there's extra room for my big head )

Muffinstuffer

Very good post. I was speaking more towards those Christians who INTENTIONALLY choose not to take the advice given in the Bible, as opposed to those of us who actually do try to practice what is preached.

You know what I mean...'Well, God said homosexuality is wrong....therefore He must hate it...therefore we hate it do, and we'll do everything we possibly can to stamp it out.' Completely forgetting parts of the Bible that talk about doing all things in a spirit of love.

What the heck is a handicap door? Hahah

Derweisswolf

Hallelujah!!!

As I mentioned in my earlier post, my mother is a relatively religious person. But we did NOT attend church services on a regular basis! When I questioned her about it as a child she told me "You can believe in God just as well at home as you can in a church. You don't have to sit through church services with hypocrites who commit every sin conceivable as soon as they believe no one will catch them or believe asking for forgiveness after the fact is acceptable when they keep committing the same sins over and over..." (Okay, I do paraphrase a little, but that's how I remember it.)

Unfortunately, she has been proven correct many times, with many self-proclaimed "good" Christians... Also the ones most likely to preach to others in my experience! :banghead:

Rhea

Wide enough for a wheelchair. Or my head.

Goliath

Muffinstuffer,

Correct.

Then please never again make the mistake of assuming that any person who is a xian is no less of a xian than you are (note that I'm saying "no less of a xian," not "no less of a person").

Simple: A xian is one who believes that the xian god exists, believes that Jesus was the son of said god, and who attempts (in some way, shape, or form) to follow the xian god.

As for Koresh, I thought I heard that he was a xian. Even if he wasn't, you can replace him with Jerry Falwell or Fred Phelps in the list that I gave on page 2.

Sincerely,

Goliath

PS In about 50 minutes, I'm gonna be out of town for the summer, and will have limited internet access. So, if you reply, then know that it may take awhile for me to respond.

Cipher Girl

Hi Muffinstuffer

Dang. Well, for one, I apologize for THAT guy. I ASSURE you that is not my method of witnessing, when I do it. On top of that, I don't actually witness IN the office. If someone asks me I'll usually tell them we'll get together on the lunch hour. For two, I would like to point out that being a 'fundie', to me, means accepting the standard stuff that 'fundies' accept - the Bible as the inerrant word of God, In God We Trust on the dollar, and so on and so forth. It doesn't mean I go out of my way to try to be a jerk.

Well from your tone you are definitely not that guy.

Seriously, you have nothing to apologize for. Obvisiously you cannot control how other christians behave. But instead of spending the time apologizing for the bad behavior of other christians, reasonable christians should not condone it and speak out against it. I speak out when I can without causing major problems for myself or if I'm only going to see the person a very few times. Perhaps I should be more forward.

You probably have witnessed to someone who did not appreciate it, but they said nothing. Last month I was in our Atlanta office and had a meeting with a co-worker from that office. He brought his wife. The conversation drifted towards the new Georgia flag and how "those atheists were causing trouble". That "those people" should be stopped. I just looked at her like she was an idiot and made some remark about a flag that should include everyone. She continued on with remarks about her church and how she found god, but I just ignored her politely and shifted the conversation. Interesting how some christians assume everyone around them is a christian, so they feel free to insult other groups. Is this usual Georgia behavior?

As one of "those people" , in some situations it's just better to ignore the offending person. Of couse not when it comes to threats however. Those I always take seriously. Anyway my opinion of her nosedived during the conversation, all without her even knowing it.

Similarly, if I insult someone, OR kill them, both of them are wrong...both are a 'sin.' Neither is any better or worse.

That's a rather frightning point of view, equating killing someone with insulting them. Perhaps I should have been very, very, afraid when I was threatned. Since one sin is just like another sin. But since I don't believe in the concept of sin, I'm glad I can judge actions on the basis of how much hurt is done to others.

Also a quick question, Muffinstuffer, why do I have to be forgiven for anything? Just by being alive? I don't need to grovel before a jealous spiteful being just for existing.

Very interesting discussion, Muffinstuffer.