Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dimossi · 04-14-2003, 12:37 PM

This columnist seems to be confused about the prayer in schools debate:

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?B...&PAG=461&rfi=9

Quote:

40 years after Madalyn Murray O'Hare
By Steven Skelley

In 1963, lawyers for a Maryland mother named Madalyn Murray O'Hare tried to convince the U.S. Supreme Court that O'Hare's son should not be subjected to religion in his Baltimore school. O'Hare was an avowed atheist. Her son's name was William Murray.

The Supreme Court, by a 4-3 vote, agreed that William Murray should not be exposed to religion as part of his school day. Supreme Court Justice Tom Campbell wrote this opinion, "Through the mechanism of the state, all of the people are being required to finance a religious exercise that only some of the people want ... "

The Supreme Court stated that the First and 14th Amendments to the Constitution require public institutions to remain neutral in matters of religion.

In June 2000, the Supreme Court ruled that it was illegal for students to lead prayers over loudspeakers at public events such as football games or graduation. This ruling came about because Mormon and Catholic parents in Texas felt that the Baptist church seems to monopolize prayer opportunities at school activities.

But neither June 1963 or June 2000 was the first time religious freedom was argued. There has long been a tug of war between those seeking to protect the right to practice religion and those who seek to keep others from being subjected to the religious exposure.

The fact remains that our country, from its very beginnings, has had a rich religious heritage. God is referred to in the very first sentence of the Declaration of Independence. The phrase "In God We Trust" is not only imprinted on U.S. currency, it's chiselled into the marble of the U.S. House of Representatives. In the U.S. Supreme Court itself there is a mural of Moses receiving the Ten Commandments.

President Abraham Lincoln declared the nation to be "under God" in his famous Gettysburg Address. In his Emancipation Proclamation, he asked for "the gracious favor of God."

Historically, people of faith have had a huge positive affect on our society at large and are responsible for many of the social progresses we've made.

In 1963, the Supreme Court arguing for a mother who did not want her son exposed to religion, swung the pendulum in the opposite direction.

Fortunately the pendulum seems to be swinging back to sensibility.

President George W. Bush and Florida Governor Jeb Bush often speak about God in their public speeches. President Bush went a step further last year by working to implement laws that allow federal moneys to assist religious based agencies which help the disadvantaged.

There is currently a bill before Congress that would allow students to pray once again while they are attending their own public schools. In a fantastic turn of events, the man leading the charge to have this bill passed is William Murray, the son whose atheist mother fought to keep him from being exposed to religion. Murray now heads The Religious Freedom Coalition in Washington D.C.

His Web site states, "The Religious Freedom Coalition has already begun to help with the passage of the school prayer amendment. We can win this battle to restore the right of our kids to pray in school."

A lot has changed in our country since 1963. A lot of battles have been fought. Children have been inarguably exposed to many harmful influences and a moral abyss. When children are forcibly exposed to immorality every day, it seems extremely foolish to deny them the opportunity to practice their faith.

Let's pray that children will once again be allowed their right to pray, wherever they are.

Steven Skelley is an ordained minister with experience in a number of church affiliations. He enjoys communicating as a writer, public speaker and songwriter. He and his wife JoyceAnn have a teenage daughter, Steffany. Steven welcomes your comments and questions at StevenSkelley@yahoo.com

Not only can you e-mail Steven but he seems to respond to most comments on the site hosting the column: http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?n...w=1&MaxRows=10

Melkor · 04-14-2003, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Fortunately the pendulum seems to be swinging back to sensibility.

President George W. Bush and Florida Governor Jeb Bush often speak about God in their public speeches. President Bush went a step further last year by working to implement laws that allow federal moneys to assist religious based agencies which help the disadvantaged.

There is currently a bill before Congress that would allow students to pray once again while they are attending their own public schools. In a fantastic turn of events, the man leading the charge to have this bill passed is William Murray, the son whose atheist mother fought to keep him from being exposed to religion. Murray now heads The Religious Freedom Coalition in Washington D.C.

His Web site states, "The Religious Freedom Coalition has already begun to help with the passage of the school prayer amendment. We can win this battle to restore the right of our kids to pray in school."

Who, where, and when did ANYONE ever prevent individual children from praying while in a public school?

I don't understand that. They're fighting to pass something to "restore" a right that was never taken away or even challenged to begin with?

Tell your kids that they can pray if they want to, on their own, in school.

But as the saying goes, "force my kid to pray, and I'll force your kid to THINK".

GunnerJ · 04-14-2003, 02:29 PM

Quote:

In 1963, lawyers for a Maryland mother named Madalyn Murray O'Hare tried to convince the U.S. Supreme Court that O'Hare's son should not be subjected to religion in his Baltimore school.

That's an interesting way of revisioning it.

Quote:

But neither June 1963 or June 2000 was the first time religious freedom was argued. There has long been a tug of war between those seeking to protect the right to practice religion and those who seek to keep others from being subjected to the religious exposure.

No such "battle" exists. Preventing the governemnt from using public schools to push religion on children is one of the best ways of protecting religious freedom. To try and make it look like those who do not want state-sponsored religious indoctrination in public schools are against religious freedom is not only dishonest, but insulting.

Quote:

God is referred to in the very first sentence of the Declaration of Independence.

Relevence? The Declaration of Independence is not a guide to government practice. The completely secular Constitution is.

Quote:

The phrase "In God We Trust" is not only imprinted on U.S. currency, it's chiselled into the marble of the U.S. House of Representatives. In the U.S.

...since the fifties, when the Knights of Columbus wanted the government to look tough on "godless commies." Their fanaticism doesn't justify further errosions of the seperation between church and state.

Quote:

President Abraham Lincoln declared the nation to be "under God" in his famous Gettysburg Address. In his Emancipation Proclamation, he asked for "the gracious favor of God."

Abraham Lincoln had the same rights as any other American, and could craft his speeches any way he wanted. The only check on this is the opinion of the voters.

Quote:

Historically, people of faith have had a huge positive affect on our society at large and are responsible for many of the social progresses we've made.

It never ceases to amaze me how "facts" like this are assumed to have any relevence beyond the obvious effects of living in a population made up mostly of "people of faith." It does not establish that their "faith" was responsible for the "positive effects" they've had.

Quote:

There is currently a bill before Congress that would allow students to pray once again while they are attending their own public schools.

Idiocy. Children have never been prevented form praying anywhere by the O'Hare ruling. They simply cannot be coerced into taking part in state-enforced and supported religious rituals.

Quote:

We can win this battle to restore the right of our kids to pray in school.

I'd like to know how one restores a right that was never revoked. Oh, wait, what this lying asshole really means is that he wants to restore the power of the governemnt to favor rleigious activity and indoctrinate the youth into his form of spirituality throught eh vehichle of public schools. Sorry, I made the mistake of giving sleazebags like this the benefit of the doubt.

Quote:

Children have been inarguably exposed to many harmful influences and a moral abyss.

When the comlumnist says "inarguably" I believe he means "I have no argument to support this contention, therefore, I will not attempt to support it."

Quote:

When children are forcibly exposed to immorality every day, it seems extremely foolish to deny them the opportunity to practice their faith.

Note how no evidence of children being denied the right to practice any faith is offered. Not too how the policy the columnist wants to reinstate without explicitely stating so would force students to practice one type of religios faith to the exclusion of others at the behest of the government. I wonder if the columnist would want his children "forcibly exposed" to religions he doesn't agree with.

BioBeing · 04-14-2003, 03:14 PM

He says it in his article

Quote:

In June 2000, the Supreme Court ruled that it was illegal for students to lead prayers over loudspeakers at public events such as football games or graduation. This ruling came about because Mormon and Catholic parents in Texas felt that the Baptist church seems to monopolize prayer opportunities at school activities.

but then doesn't understand it... One (Christian) religous group here was getting upset over what another (Christian) religous group was doing. And he wants to bring this back. I say put away the lions, lets just let the Christians kill themselves!

Biff the unclean · 04-14-2003, 03:37 PM

I wonder if the columnist would want his children "forcibly exposed" to religions he doesn't agree with.

I few years back when I was living on Kauai I met a minister who always wore three piece suits and silk ties who was pushing this same BS. I explained to him that in my kids class there were 2 Atheists, 3 Shinto, 1 Buddhist, 2 Pagans and the rest Mormons. I asked him what kind of prayer he would have them say. He said "non-denominational." I asked if "non-denominational" included Pele and Kane and he took offence to that.

Daggah · 04-14-2003, 03:42 PM

I wrote this email to him:

Quote:

"The fact remains that our country, from its very beginnings, has had a rich religious heritage. God is referred to in the very first sentence of the Declaration of Independence."

The fact remains that the god mentioned in that very first sentence isn't the Christian one.

The fact remains that God remains unmentioned in the founding document of our current government, the Constitution.

The fact remains that, in 1797, the U.S. Senate ratified - unanimously - a treaty containing the completely unambiguous statement, "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

The fact remains that the First Amendment insures that the United States is a secular country.

The fact remains that the Constitution also forbids using religious tests as a requirement for office.

The fact remains that the United States of America is a secular country.

Jefferson was almost prophetic...ironically, considering his own lack of faith...

"I know it will give great offense to the clergy, but the advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace nor forgiveness from them." - Thomas Jefferson

He also said:

"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries." - Thomas Jefferson

Oh, and since you're so quick to post quotes from Lincoln, how about these that you failed to mention?

"What is to be, will be, and no prayers of ours can arrest the decree."

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession."

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them."

You also said:

"There is currently a bill before Congress that would allow students to pray once again while they are attending their own public schools."

Your side's blatant dishonesty is the most damaging element of your argument. Students can already pray in public schools. They just can't force the entire school, full of members making up a diverse group of faiths (and lack of faiths), to participate and listen. Your own freaking Bible condemns public prayer, hypocrite!

It certainly seems odd that the side who so often whines about the moral abyss of our country (no doubt you also rant about the "religion" of evolution being used to "indoctrinate" our children!) are the ones most likely to be caught lying...

...over...and over...and over again.

You might try reading Exodus 20:16. And then, you might try applying it to yourself before you think of continuing to spread the dishonest propaganda of the Religious Reich!

David Gevert

Our current president is a moron!
http://www.votetoimpeach.org

I feel good.

Amie · 04-14-2003, 06:15 PM

Although I believe in God, I love God and I pray daily, I do not feel that prayer has any place in the school system.

Amaranth · 04-14-2003, 09:42 PM

I imagine a number of folks have already written this fellow pointing to Franklins Deism, the Treaty of Tripoli, and numerous other problems with the idea this country holds god, and more specifically Christianity, as a central tenet. Still, I just couldn't contain my annoyance at the blatantly sloppy journalism displayed, and had to slip the fellow at least one email:

Quote:

Mr. Skelley,

In your article, you write "When children are forcibly exposed to immorality every day, it seems extremely foolish to deny them the opportunity to practice their faith." Perhaps the more important fight should be putting an end to having children sit in school 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's seems quite horrid that children should have such things forced upon them, and I'm apalled that I had not heard of the condition before.

There. We have both aptly displayed the ability to exaggerate to absurdity. My question, however, is why would someone who likely invested a good deal of time and money in learning journalism resort to such sloppy practices? If you seek to convert people to your idea, would it not be more apt to present facts and opinions, not sensationalized agruments from fear?

Amaranth

Le sigh...and I still feel no better.

Psycho Economist · 04-14-2003, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BioBeing
One (Christian) religous group here was getting upset over what another (Christian) religous group was doing.

BB, some fundies don't think Catholics or Mormons are Christian.

BioBeing · 04-14-2003, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Psycho Economist
BB, some fundies don't think Catholics or Mormons are Christian.

Splitters!

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04-14-2003, 03:37 PM	#5
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	I wonder if the columnist would want his children "forcibly exposed" to religions he doesn't agree with. I few years back when I was living on Kauai I met a minister who always wore three piece suits and silk ties who was pushing this same BS. I explained to him that in my kids class there were 2 Atheists, 3 Shinto, 1 Buddhist, 2 Pagans and the rest Mormons. I asked him what kind of prayer he would have them say. He said "non-denominational." I asked if "non-denominational" included Pele and Kane and he took offence to that.

04-14-2003, 06:15 PM	#7
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	Although I believe in God, I love God and I pray daily, I do not feel that prayer has any place in the school system.

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