CavemanUg

It is easy for intellectuals to say that God, as preached by religious doctrines, doesn’t exist. But is this concept healthy? Since the intellectual influences of early atheist philosophers it has been almost "popular" in the learned community to deny the existence of God, or at least how God is portrayed. (Maybe I am wrong in my observations, but, most of the people on this forum seem to either be atheist or agnostic, and, most of the people on this forum seem fairly intelligent) But, I don't think that we, as human beings, are to a point in our mental development to say, "Maybe when I die that is the end, no pearly gates, no judgment nothing." I think that if we reach this point prematurely it may be detrimental to our society as a whole. What else is stopping George W. Bush from pushing that big self destruct button and sending us all into oblivion other than his religious beliefs? And, if we do lose faith in God where will our laws come from, statistics, "universal laws of right and wrong" also called the human conscience, or money. I see more evil in a lot of these that I do in a religious doctrine. Racial Profiling - Statistics (and arguably the next form of racism), human conscience - Hitler thought what he was doing was right... that was only 55 years ago, or money - which is used for more evil deeds than anything else (this is not to say that it cannot be used for good, but it is most often not). Some would say laws, but, laws only reflect the beliefs of a society during the time in which that particular society is in power or in other words human conscience. Religious doctrines are based on ideal concepts, which are "timeless". Treat others as you'd treat yourself, Avoid violent conflict (or in some beliefs almost all conflict), do not steal; I think that these are better ideals to live by than the other options. So is it healthy to demean the existence of God however intangible and improvable God may be?

I am sorry if this post seems stupid, it is my first, so I figured I'd go all out on it and I realize I may have gone too far. However, that is for you all to correct me on.

anonymite

Although I doubt you're implying this, the absence of religion does not automatically set the world up for the kind of atrocities that you pointed out. In fact, many of those things have happened in the past, specifically because of organized religion. I mean I know a guy with a black belt, who's essentially an agnostic. It's not like he's going around incapacitating people, becase of it. I'd argue that's more a function of the person than of his faith.

Colander of Truth

Consider this: THE RELIGION YOU CHOOSE IS DONE SO WITH MORAL JUDGMENT THAT IS ANTECEDENT TO THE BENEFIT OF THE RELIGION THUS CHOSEN. (Sorry, capslock turned on by mistake).

Now, just where did that come from? How is it that people who do choose a religion, do so, without any moral basis?`

parkdalian

Hi Cavemanug, and welcom to IInfidels

I think you should consider that morality can be based on human instinct, common sense and experience, and that religions have possibly made unsupported and flatly false claims as being the origin of morality.

Our primitive ancestors had an intuitive grasp of moral thinking and behavior, valued it greatly and incorporated it into their various tribal superstitions. To the atheist, morality makes more sense if it is analyzed as a set of behaviors that are beneficial for humanity as a whole and for the individual. We understand that for the purpose of self-love, loving and being loved, along with justifying human rights, that conscientious morality is a necessity in this life. Morality must be understood to be a good thing in its own right, and not merely based on the desire to please a god, reaping more selfish rewards in a promised afterlife.

You mentioned the golden rule--that simple idea must be understood for what it is--a basic personal moral principle that makes sense if we're all to get along. Because it's such a simple and useful rule-of-thumb, I'm quite positive it doesn't take a god to come up with that idea.

So I ask you one question. Could a human have invented the golden rule (or at least, the first to express it formally)??

Koyaanisqatsi

oh, this one again...

"Easy?" You try it some time.

I'd wait for the explanation, but instead will just cut to the chase. Yes.

Atheists do not "deny" the existence of a god. That would be ridiculous; akin to denying the existence of Super Man.

One does not deny the existence of a fictional character.

So, you're conclusion is what? Based on the fact that we're an atheist website (the Secular Web) and we're all intelligent, we all just sit around drinking Sherry and looking down our noses at all those ignorant sheep out there serving us all in the fields? That we don't actually engage in lengthy debate and detailed deconstruction in order to debunk and deprogram historically detrimental cult indoctrination?

You haven't been around here very much, have you?

Now who is offering an intellectually supperior, elitist observation?

Just exactly who, as a human being, is not at a point in their mental development to say, "When I die, that is the end; no pearly gates, no judgement; nothing?"

All those sheep out there who have been programmed to think precisely the opposite; that there will be pearly gates and judgement and something; i.e. absolution for their crimes on earth, but only after they die?



So, now you're arguing for a careful guiding of the sheep by the atheist shepherd? Deprogram only the wealthy, first, and then we'll control the proles?

WHAT? First of all, he has no serious religious beliefs. See: Karl Rove. Secondly, the beliefs that he is exploiting to his own benefit are precisely what is pushing him to push that big self destruct button; American imperialist doctrines.

Power and control lies only in oil, since oil makes the world go around, or hadn't you noticed that everytime you start your car in the morning to go to work?

Since, as the propaganda goes, god is on our side, which means, Bush's side, then no one will question what the real motives behind most of the wars we've been involved in (and instigated, however covertly) since WWII, so, you're quite wrong. Bush has been doing nothing but pushing that great big self destruct button.

Motive? Short term gain with the highest returns for a select few. Gee, now what christian cult dogma does that most resemble?

Where they've always come from; ourselves.

Then you need to be a more discerning student of socio-religious history.

You mean like Paul telling a congregation of Greek converts that Jews killed their own Messiah and are hated by God and will suffer eternally under God's wrath? The same God that the Jews first created as their own savior?

And it was based, arguably, upon his christian cult upbringing. Jews were considered "Christ killers" first and foremost and detested by God, thanks to Paul, the rock of christianity.

You are aware, aren't you, that Jews were exterminated by Christians long before Hitler ever lived, yes?

And false. Don't forget the number one problem with them.

None of which are necessarily religious concepts; they were merely co-opted by cults and illegitimately attributed to cult icons in order to sell the potion; the watered-down whiskey that hides the taste of the snake venom in the snake oil they're selling.

Considering a case can be made (and has been made by myself and countless others throughout all of recorded history) that 98% of our socio-political and even economic problems stem almost entirely out of the false religious doctrines that have plagued mankind for centuries, it is not just "healthy," it is imperative.

Just look at the flipside. For the past five thousand years the Western World (at least) has been under the direct control of largely Judeo-Christian cults and what has that resulted in? Precisely where we are today!

Your argument might be salient if religious dogma had never had a chance to work its magic; but the problem is precisely the fact that it has dominated our culture for millenia and caused far more harm than good.

Do you see any atheists strapping bombs to their children and sending them off to the mall to murder the believers?

Don't worry. We will and have.

God, the most powerful being in the entire universe, has supposedly been telling us how to live our lives for the past five thousand years, or so (using, again, the most dominant god myth in Western controlling culture) and even went to such drastic extremes as to kill himself as a sacrifice to himself in order to save us all from the nature "he" instilled in us all to begin with, and where has that five thousand year influence taken us?

To the wanton destruction of our environment because of the thinking that god gave us everything on earth to subdue; to the brink of total genocide, since "God will sort it out in the end,"; to the hatred and segregation of countless "different" people, because the christian church "elders" taught hatred of Jews, in particular, and "non-believers" in general; to a total breakdown of self-worth and therefore self-responsibility; to, worst of all, a sheep mentality, where the shepherd (i.e., whoever is claiming authority in God's name) will lead us all to be shorn, killed and eaten, if not merely locked up in the pen at night for the next day's shoring, killing and eating.

Cult dogma demands adherence to a false ideal based on faith alone; the scrambling of the individual's natural ability to determine what is right and wrong in place of a ruling elite's version of what it right and wrong, all for the purposes of control and subjugation. Get down on your knees and pray to be forgiven your sins against the controlling elite and do not question your controlling elite (aka, "God").

Render unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's, yes? And turn the other cheek while the HSA rapes you of your privacy and right to live, because the snake-oil salesmen have run out of snake-oil.

Sing hallelujah!

I'll give you this, though. For a first post, that one was well calculated to stir up the feces.

Visionary

What im thinking is that religions are not the origin of morality, i think morality is something that comes natural when a society develops. I think its just a natural part of the societal evolution.

I have a hard time believing extermination of religions would cause society to break down and collapse completely. Most likely it will be redefined with a new set of moral rules which i imagine would be more natural, more humane and more rational then especially the christian ideology.

DoubleDutchy

What would drive him towards pushing it ? I don't know for sure but I suspect it would be his religious beliefs as well.

As for the link between religion and morality, I feel that the stand taken be Laotse (ca 500 BC) is still more then worthwile considering:

Tao Te Ching:38. Religion ------------

The loving do not act.
The kind act without self-interest;
The just act to serve self-interest;
The religious act to reproduce self-interest.
For when Tao is lost, there is love;
When love is lost, there is kindness;
When kindness is lost, there is justice;
And when justice is lost, there is religion.
Well established hierarchies are not easily uprooted;
Closely held beliefs are not easily released;
So religion enthralls generation after generation.
Religion is the end of love and honesty,
The beginning of confusion;
Faith is a colourful hope or fear, The origin of folly.
The sage goes by knowledge, not by hope;
He dwells in the fruit, not the flower;
He accepts the former, and rejects the latter.

Neilium

It is? try going to City Hall (any city, really) and saying that out loud.

Well, if there really is a benevolent and loving God, and if there really is a Heaven, why not blow the whole damn thing up and deliver all the righteous to Heaven all at once? Think about all the human suffering on this planet that would come to a merciful end with one big flash.

If he truly were a man of faith, he'd somehow figure out that "thou shalt not order others to kill" is the same as the more familiar commandment, "thou shalt not kill."

Same place they come from now: Each other.

So, you advocate a sort of "noble lie"?

Think of the people you know. How many of them, in your opinion, need the threat of an omniscient immortal being's judgement to keep them in line?

cheers,
-Neil

Starboy

CavemanUg, I understand my surroundings using purely natural explanations. As I see it morals, like language, is a natural phenomena. The idea that if religion were to go away that somehow morals would disappear would be the same as saying that if religion went away we would no longer have language. It is just silly to connect morals and religion.

Starboy

King's Indian

Hello, CavemanUg.

How early? Epicurus? Lucretius?