Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Melkor · 02-19-2003, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pz
But that's the problem -- teachers aren't supposed to be neutral! We're supposed to advocate good science.

But "good science" does not necessarily have to be done by directly bashing one particular religion, and that's what that religion will see this as, even if we don't... and for the record, I don't see it that way either.

Quote:

You're falling for the creationists' bogus 'equality" argument, that it isn't fair. It isn't supposed to be fair. Good teaching isn't about treating stupid ideas with respect.

I'm not falling for it, I'm just pointing it out. There's a difference.

justwonder · 02-19-2003, 09:17 AM

I just have to put in my 2 cents;
I agree that the evolve/Darwin fish would be considered anti-christian by many. Would it be ok for the teacher to wear a t-shirt with that little peeing (or is it urinating) boy, peeing on a cross? You might say "the cross is just two sticks but I think you'd end up beaten by an angry mob of peace lovin christians.
I'm amazed at the Darwin fish mounting the jesus fish I've seen lately, I'd be afraid to have that on my car here in Pat Robertson country. (VA)

GaryP · 02-19-2003, 12:51 PM

Many teachers I know wear cross necklaces, WWJD bracelets, church sweatshirts, etc., etc. And I believe this has all been held to be admissable.

SO....even if the EvolveFish is religious, the teacher has every right to wear it.

Megusic · 02-19-2003, 02:10 PM

I'm w/ Melkor. I proudly display my own DarwinFish on my car, and I know that this may be offending some people, but it is on my private property. A teacher, however, must respect the beliefs of his/her students, as a roll model who is supposed to be giving secular guidance. Even if the fish was taken from Pagans, it is still a religious symbol, and putting Darwin or Evolve inside clearly expresses and anti-Christian thinking, inappropriate for a teacher. Just as I am opposed to 10C's being posted in schools, I am equally opposed to a teacher trying to influence the religious views of students. I have noticed crosses on my teachers, never church clothes or anything of the like. While I don't think this wearing this is cool, it isn't openly refuting another particular religion.

It is completely possible to teach good science, evolution, and celebrate the work of Darwin w/o bashing religion. None of my teachers ever exposed me to the Darwin fish yet they still got me hooked on evolution theory.

Melkor · 02-19-2003, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GaryP
Many teachers I know wear cross necklaces, WWJD bracelets, church sweatshirts, etc., etc. And I believe this has all been held to be admissable.

SO....even if the EvolveFish is religious, the teacher has every right to wear it.

No... the Evolve Fish is anti-religious... and that's my point. None of those things you listed are anti- anything.

Rusting Car Bumper · 02-19-2003, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Feather
The talk show hosts claims that wearing such a symbol indicates a knowing and deliberate assault on a religion (Xtianity). I understand the point, but I believe only the fringe fundies would agree with it. But I am admittedly biased, being an atheist and a supporter of scientific endeavours in general.

So how would y'all interpret such a symbol? Is it no different than wearing the Xtian Fish symbol, or any other religious accoutrements? Keep in mind this is a high school teacher, so the act of a chilid wearing such devices is not in question; only a school official.

The position is based on the mistaken conclusion that evolution or Darwinism is an attack on Christianity. That is simply not true.

We, nonbelievers, don't help ourselves in this regard. Everytime we discuss it in print or in public we should always start with the disclaimer and explaination that a giant percentage of Christians worldwide believe in evolution. These believers have no problem reconciling their belief with evolution and perhaps Christians who feel that evolution or Darwinian ideas are an attack on Christianity ought to first talk to them and ask how they reconcile their faith with these ideas.

DC

Fisheye · 02-19-2003, 02:33 PM

I don't think the darwin fish is anti-religious.

In fact, this article from the NYTimes includes this bit of info (emphasis mine):

Quote:

Every time he found a Darwin fish, he left a survey form on the car.

"There are two views," he said of the Darwin fish camp. "One group was openly hostile to traditional religious beliefs," he said, and the other seemed to believe in peaceful symbolic coexistence.

Dr. Lessl said some Darwin fish owners had so much to say that some went well beyond the single page provided for answers to as many as three single-spaced typed pages. Some described the fish as a kind of defense, a way for persecuted atheists to fight back against the onslaught of religion, something like its first use by persecuted Christians.

But, he said, he found many people who said they displayed the Darwin fish as a symbol of the harmonious coexistence of Darwinian ideas and religion.

Melkor · 02-19-2003, 02:58 PM

Now I'd like to see a survey of church-going Christians on how THEY perceive it, because that's the key to this... not the intent of Atheists who display it.

pz · 02-19-2003, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Melkor
Now I'd like to see a survey of church-going Christians on how THEY perceive it, because that's the key to this... not the intent of Atheists who display it.

What? That makes no sense. You mean that if someone else misinterprets my intent, it is my fault and I should change?

I disagree completely. The key is the intent of the person displaying it, not the errors of perception made by palpably stupid people.

ProNihil · 02-19-2003, 04:22 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Feather
[B]But the Xtian version of the fish is derived from pagan symbology, Melkor.

Feather,
I was under the impression that the Icthus was thought up so that early believers could identify themselves to eachother. i.e. the whole "I will make you fishers of men" thing. I don't have any references to this, just that I heard it somewhere long ago.

If anyone knows about this, I would like to hear. Thanks.

02-19-2003, 09:17 AM	#12
justwonder Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: VA USA Posts: 172	My 2 cents I just have to put in my 2 cents; I agree that the evolve/Darwin fish would be considered anti-christian by many. Would it be ok for the teacher to wear a t-shirt with that little peeing (or is it urinating) boy, peeing on a cross? You might say "the cross is just two sticks but I think you'd end up beaten by an angry mob of peace lovin christians. I'm amazed at the Darwin fish mounting the jesus fish I've seen lately, I'd be afraid to have that on my car here in Pat Robertson country. (VA)

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02-19-2003, 12:51 PM	#13
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	Many teachers I know wear cross necklaces, WWJD bracelets, church sweatshirts, etc., etc. And I believe this has all been held to be admissable. SO....even if the EvolveFish is religious, the teacher has every right to wear it.

02-19-2003, 02:10 PM	#14
Megusic Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: OH Posts: 1,292	I'm w/ Melkor. I proudly display my own DarwinFish on my car, and I know that this may be offending some people, but it is on my private property. A teacher, however, must respect the beliefs of his/her students, as a roll model who is supposed to be giving secular guidance. Even if the fish was taken from Pagans, it is still a religious symbol, and putting Darwin or Evolve inside clearly expresses and anti-Christian thinking, inappropriate for a teacher. Just as I am opposed to 10C's being posted in schools, I am equally opposed to a teacher trying to influence the religious views of students. I have noticed crosses on my teachers, never church clothes or anything of the like. While I don't think this wearing this is cool, it isn't openly refuting another particular religion. It is completely possible to teach good science, evolution, and celebrate the work of Darwin w/o bashing religion. None of my teachers ever exposed me to the Darwin fish yet they still got me hooked on evolution theory.

02-19-2003, 02:58 PM	#18
Melkor Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The Void Posts: 396	Now I'd like to see a survey of church-going Christians on how THEY perceive it, because that's the key to this... not the intent of Atheists who display it.

02-19-2003, 04:22 PM	#20
ProNihil Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 228	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Feather [B]But the Xtian version of the fish is derived from pagan symbology, Melkor. Feather, I was under the impression that the Icthus was thought up so that early believers could identify themselves to eachother. i.e. the whole "I will make you fishers of men" thing. I don't have any references to this, just that I heard it somewhere long ago. If anyone knows about this, I would like to hear. Thanks.

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