Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Detached9 · 03-14-2002, 02:21 PM

I will never again the rest of my life hear the word "Vegetarian" without thinking of this ridiculous bullshit..

You're going to compare what two vegetarians said here to anyone who is vegetarian?

Malaclypse the Younger · 03-14-2002, 02:28 PM

spin

Quote:

A justification for eating dead animals which is based on some morality, otherwise I see no reason to make the distinction between your argument and that which I would think Jeffrey Dahmer might have imagined. "I do it because I can."

It should be noted that it is a fact that Jeffrey Dahmer could kill and eat people and did so because he could. That he believed this fact to be true is a true belief. Arguing against the existence of a fact is irrational on its face.

Moral philosophy itself does not compel anyone to believe anything, regardless of its content. It is an excercise in futility to determine whether Dahmer's action itself was "immoral"; at worst he could simply say, "ok then, I choose to act immorally." Rather, it is more productive to determine whether our imprisonment of Dahmer was moral.

By extension then, the personal decision whether or to eat meat is a personal decision. The relevant ethical decision is whether and to what degree to coercively prevent the eating of meat.

How you have arrived at your personal decision is not really relevant to me; since we are starting with different facts (the existence of different tastes), it is unsurprising that our conclusions would differ.

Quote:

I refer you to the argument above - it would be completely irrational of me to make that choice.

This makes no sense to me, although I understand all the words. You are using the word irrational with a meaning that doesn't compute. Rationality involves logical structure leading to logical conclusions based on clear and reasonable premises. If you can choose not to eat meat, as many vegetarians have shown possible, it would seem that there is nothing necessarily irrational about such a choice. If you can make the choice and it is not irrational per se, what the hell are you trying to say?

In a sense both of you are right. Absent the consideration of actual individual tastes, both actions are possibly rational. In the presence of specific tastes, it is irrational do deny the fact of their existence.

Quote:

Meat is relatively expensive. What are you talking about? Is this a matter of "pleasant taste" is sufficient reason for killing animals? You would then, it seems to me, be simply hedonistic and without morality.

It should be noted that hedonism is a particular moral position--it is not equivelent to nihilism.

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Malaclypse the Younger ]

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Malaclypse the Younger ]</p>

Malaclypse the Younger · 03-14-2002, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Detached9:
<strong>Not everyone who argues for vegetarianism here is trying to convert you. Unless you (the readers of this thread) think the point of debate is to convert people?</strong>

Generally speaking, yes, debates in in this forum are read as having persuasive intent. Unless a person explicitly states that they are offering scientific fact or somesuch, I assume that their intent is to persuade.

tronvillain · 03-14-2002, 02:41 PM

spin:

Quote:

Perhaps it's better that you include your previous comment so that one can know what you're referring back to. If I remember correctly you were letting your palate do the arguing and I got nothing from you.

Fine. Here it is again:

1) The enjoyment I derive from eating specific animals outweighs the empathy I feel for those animals.

2) The enjoyment others derive from eating specific animals outweighs the empathy I feel for those animals.

3) The displeasure of those who do not hold positions one and two does not outweigh the enjoyment other and I derive from eating specific animals.

As a result, I do not consider eating meat "wrong."

Quote:

A justification for eating dead animals which is based on some morality, otherwise I see no reason to make the distinction between your argument and that which I would think Jeffrey Dahmer might have imagined. "I do it because I can."

There is no distinction between my argument and his - the difference between us arises solely because of the positions of other people.

Quote:

This makes no sense to me, although I understand all the words. You are using the word irrational with a meaning that doesn't compute. Rationality involves logical structure leading to logical conclusions based on clear and reasonable premises. If you can choose not to eat meat, as many vegetarians have shown possible, it would seem that there is nothing necessarily irrational about such a choice. If you can make the choice and it is not irrational per se, what the hell are you trying to say?

I said that it would be irrational of me to make that choice, not that it was irrational for anyone to make that choice. It shouldn't be that hard to understand.

Quote:

Meat is relatively expensive. What are you talking about? Is this a matter of "pleasant taste" is sufficient reason for killing animals? You would then, it seems to me, be simply hedonistic and without morality.

So by your standards I am without morality. Oh no!

Mageth · 03-14-2002, 02:46 PM

"Who is 'you' referring to"
Incase this wasn't a joke, I'm not sure, I'll re-word my last few sentences.

No, it wasn't a joke. You included "you" in a statement where it was not clear whom you were addressing (your post followed immediately after one of mine, in which I didn't say anything about anyone trying to convert me, so I wasn't sure if you were addressing me, a previous poster, or all of us).

spin · 03-14-2002, 03:04 PM

Macaclypse:
----------------------
the personal decision whether or to eat meat is a personal decision.
----------------------

You are literally correct.

Macaclypse:
----------------------
The relevant ethical decision is whether and to what degree to coercively prevent the eating of meat.
----------------------

No. Coersion is not a tool of ethics. Education is.

Macaclypse
------------------------------
Absent the consideration of actual individual tastes, both actions are possibly rational. In the presence of specific tastes, it is irrational do deny the fact of their existence.
----------------------

No-one is talking about denying anything.

spin:
------------------------------
Meat is relatively expensive. What are you talking about? Is this a matter of "pleasant taste" is sufficient reason for killing animals? You would then, it seems to me, be simply hedonistic and without morality.
------------------------------

Macaclypse:
----------------------
It should be noted that hedonism is a particular moral position--it is not equivelent to nihilism.
----------------------

I understand that you consider it moral. I did not use it related to nihilism, but to someone who is manipulated by their own necessity to fulfil their physical pleasures.

Mad Kally · 03-14-2002, 03:09 PM

Quote:

posted by Detached9:
You're going to compare what two vegetarians said here to anyone who is vegetarian?

That's not what I said. However it will always go through my mind. I was amazed the first time I saw a veggie thread on these boards. I already know many nice vegetarians. I live a few miles down the freeway from a 7th Day Adventist city. (Loma Linda) They don't sell coffee, alcohol, or meat within the city limits. However I have never encountered such rabid, fundie-type behavior from anyone before. (outside of Charismatic/pentecostal fundies.) There are quite a few vegetarians who post here, but they don't behave like punkerslut or spin.

Trying to communicate with punker or spin is totally pointless, and I won't do it again.

spin · 03-14-2002, 03:18 PM

tronvillain:
------------------
There is no distinction between my argument and his (Dahmer's) - the difference between us arises solely because of the positions of other people.
------------------

Why are you posting here where you are supposed to be talking about morals and obviously not doing so? You are saying that your position is essentially no different from his (and I agree), which indicates to me, that, while you have conscious involvement in your decisions, you make no moral analysis of them.

tronvillain:
------------------
I said that it would be irrational of me to make that choice (not to eat meat), not that it was irrational for anyone to make that choice. It shouldn't be that hard to understand.
------------------

You have stated your logic for eating meat, ie you like the taste (and that outweighs your feelings for animals -- naturally, you have no feelings for animals [well, you may have been trained to like pets]). There is nothing irrational about you making a choice not to eat animals. You have merely argued that you like the taste. That does not in any way preclude rationality in your possible stopping.

spin:
------------------------------
Meat is relatively expensive. What are you talking about? Is this a matter of "pleasant taste" is sufficient reason for killing animals? You would then, it seems to me, be simply hedonistic and without morality.
------------------------------

tronvillain:
------------------------------
So by your standards I am without morality. Oh no!
------------------------------

As you have no argumentation whatsoever, I guess I'll leave you to it.

x-member · 03-14-2002, 03:22 PM

Notice;

Spin's claims, be they fanciful or aparently common knowledge, have never once been cited. All requests for citation have been cuffed aside due to how busy he is.

-Flesh which lasts too long in the gut will rot and become poison.
-Primative tribes are cannibalistic.

(will add more soon)

Jon

spin · 03-14-2002, 03:34 PM

Mad Kally:
------------------
Trying to communicate with punker or spin is totally pointless, and I won't do it again.
------------------

I didn't see much volition on your part to communicate. This may be a wrong perception on my part, but from what I saw, your transmission was somewhat pointless.

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03-14-2002, 02:21 PM	#351
Detached9 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 341	I will never again the rest of my life hear the word "Vegetarian" without thinking of this ridiculous bullshit.. You're going to compare what two vegetarians said here to anyone who is vegetarian?

03-14-2002, 02:46 PM	#355
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	"Who is 'you' referring to" Incase this wasn't a joke, I'm not sure, I'll re-word my last few sentences. No, it wasn't a joke. You included "you" in a statement where it was not clear whom you were addressing (your post followed immediately after one of mine, in which I didn't say anything about anyone trying to convert me, so I wasn't sure if you were addressing me, a previous poster, or all of us).

03-14-2002, 03:04 PM	#356
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Macaclypse: ---------------------- the personal decision whether or to eat meat is a personal decision. ---------------------- You are literally correct. Macaclypse: ---------------------- The relevant ethical decision is whether and to what degree to coercively prevent the eating of meat. ---------------------- No. Coersion is not a tool of ethics. Education is. Macaclypse ------------------------------ Absent the consideration of actual individual tastes, both actions are possibly rational. In the presence of specific tastes, it is irrational do deny the fact of their existence. ---------------------- No-one is talking about denying anything. spin: ------------------------------ Meat is relatively expensive. What are you talking about? Is this a matter of "pleasant taste" is sufficient reason for killing animals? You would then, it seems to me, be simply hedonistic and without morality. ------------------------------ Macaclypse: ---------------------- It should be noted that hedonism is a particular moral position--it is not equivelent to nihilism. ---------------------- I understand that you consider it moral. I did not use it related to nihilism, but to someone who is manipulated by their own necessity to fulfil their physical pleasures.

03-14-2002, 03:18 PM	#358
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	tronvillain: ------------------ There is no distinction between my argument and his (Dahmer's) - the difference between us arises solely because of the positions of other people. ------------------ Why are you posting here where you are supposed to be talking about morals and obviously not doing so? You are saying that your position is essentially no different from his (and I agree), which indicates to me, that, while you have conscious involvement in your decisions, you make no moral analysis of them. tronvillain: ------------------ I said that it would be irrational of me to make that choice (not to eat meat), not that it was irrational for anyone to make that choice. It shouldn't be that hard to understand. ------------------ You have stated your logic for eating meat, ie you like the taste (and that outweighs your feelings for animals -- naturally, you have no feelings for animals [well, you may have been trained to like pets]). There is nothing irrational about you making a choice not to eat animals. You have merely argued that you like the taste. That does not in any way preclude rationality in your possible stopping. spin: ------------------------------ Meat is relatively expensive. What are you talking about? Is this a matter of "pleasant taste" is sufficient reason for killing animals? You would then, it seems to me, be simply hedonistic and without morality. ------------------------------ tronvillain: ------------------------------ So by your standards I am without morality. Oh no! ------------------------------ As you have no argumentation whatsoever, I guess I'll leave you to it.

03-14-2002, 03:22 PM	#359
x-member Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: free Posts: 123	Notice; Spin's claims, be they fanciful or aparently common knowledge, have never once been cited. All requests for citation have been cuffed aside due to how busy he is. -Flesh which lasts too long in the gut will rot and become poison. -Primative tribes are cannibalistic. (will add more soon) Jon

03-14-2002, 03:34 PM	#360
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Mad Kally: ------------------ Trying to communicate with punker or spin is totally pointless, and I won't do it again. ------------------ I didn't see much volition on your part to communicate. This may be a wrong perception on my part, but from what I saw, your transmission was somewhat pointless.

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