dangin

I want this on a t-shirt. This is almost pathological honesty. What if every christian talked this way?

worldling

A humble rhyme, by me, on this very subject:

"I have faith," says the Christian, "and you
Can know God if you just have faith too."
But of course! For it seems
"To have faith" simply means,
To pretend really hard something's true.

Illustrated here

dangin

C'mon helen. Emotional is saying "I will knowingly keep myself ignorant for my mental well being."

Is the ignorance the wise part, or the fact that reality threatens his/her emotional health that reeks of wisdom?

HelenM

I think it's wise of him to do what protects his emotional health.

If you really think that he'd be better off trying to change his beliefs in ways that make him suicidal, I can only conclude that you've lost sight of what's important in life.

Helen

MortalWombat

I don't disagree that doing things to protect one's emotional health is a good thing to do, but perhaps continually posting on discussion boards which are full of skeptics and atheists might be counterproductive to this goal, particularly when many of the people posting here aren't aware of the history and circumstances involved.

dangin

But it's his beliefs that make him suicidal. He's implying that if he discovers that his beliefs are in error, he will die (even though that is what he fears) rather than simply adjust his beliefs. I don't think I'm the one who needs to regain an appropriate sight on what's important in life. Because if there is one thing that is not important in life it's the afterlife. Which may be important in the afterlife when life will no longer be important. This is all rather silly isn't it?

Rational BAC

I think "faith" can be described as a right brained type of thinking.

------A gut feeling. -----Don't tell me that atheists never have "gut feelings"

---Can't explain rationally but you know you are right and really cannot explain it in any logical way ---

---An emotion, indescribable to anyone who is incapable of feeling that same emotion----

----An inate sense (that humans have had since time immemorial) that people realize that with their weak minds, and limited intelligence and even weaker senses--- that they only THINK they know all of reality----They realize that they are only seeing through a glass darkly.

----It is thinking "outside the box"-----

---It is all the things that make humans actually human ---------and not purely rational entities that at some time in the future can be easily duplicated using robotic machinery.

Rhaedas

I find it hard to put myself into someone's shoes who would willingly and knowingly try to delude themselves. Maybe it's just the difference in personalities, but if I found two or more differing viewpoints, I'd want to examine them all to try and figure out the most likely possibility. To pick one because it fulfills some fantasy, or is more comforting, and somehow make oneself forget that there are other more likely choices, seems...odd to me. The universe cares not what you believe, it is what it is. Whether it's a cold, lonely universe or not, I'd rather have the facts than always battle within to fool myself...hell, in an environment like this message board, how could one continue to ignore conflicting information?

Again, it must be a personality thing...some may need a barrier of fantasy to keep them going in the world. I myself have no problems with a natural universe, a limited lifespan, and no guidance from above. I take what I've got, and do the best a human can do. If there's some afterlife, some persistance of consciousness, even some god and heaven, great...but I'm not going to try and trick myself into believing it's a fact if all I find is the opposite in the real world.

HelenM

No it's not - it's brain chemicals.

I'd say it's rather silly to try to dissuade someone from believing in the afterlife - not to mention unkind, if he has said that he needs to believe in it - if you think it's irrelevant anyway.

Someone who says "I need this belief in the afterlife for the sake of my life now" is focusing on what they need for their life here and now.

Helen

Godless Wonder

I think I have what I would call "gut feelings", but I don't know if they are the same as what you experience that you refer to as "gut feelings" I certainly have not had a "gut feeling" that I just "knew" without a doubt was correct. Feelings are subjective, not objective, like the experience of the "redness of red".

Quote:

---Can't explain rationally but you know you are right and really cannot explain it in any logical way ---

THIS is what I find so exasperating. How can you just "know" you are right? There are loads of other people who also "just know" they are right (just as much as you do) and their beliefs are contradictory to your own, and "just as ridiculous" is how I would put it. This kind of thinking drives me nuts. No, scratch that. Drives me to believe that most humans have defective brains. VERY defective brains. (Defective, when measured by standards of how well they reason. When measured by evolutionary standards, maybe religious irrationality is a "good thing", like the peacock's tail is a "good thing". Almost ironic.)

Quote:

---An emotion, indescribable to anyone who is incapable of feeling that same emotion---- ----An inate sense (that humans have had since time immemorial) that people realize that with their weak minds, and limited intelligence and even weaker senses--- that they only THINK they know all of reality----They realize that they are only seeing through a glass darkly.

Yet you claim to be able to know things imperceptible. Why not just say you don't know then? Oh yeah, I forgot, because magically, you do know. Argh. it's pointless to continue with this.

Quote:

----It is thinking "outside the box"----- ---It is all the things that make humans actually human ---------and not purely rational entities that at some time in the future can be easily duplicated using robotic machinery.

Well, I believe that humans are nothing more than the molecules they are made of. With a sufficiently powerful computer and a sufficiently accurate and large model of atomic behavior, I believe that humans could, in theory be simulated inside a computer. (Of course whenever you see someone say "in theory", what they mean is "not really". Of course it is totally impractical for even the distantly forseeable future.)

Do I know I'm right about that? No. Whan I say "I believe", I mean I believe to a certain degree of certainty. that is, I think it is highly likely I am correct, but not certain.