fromtheright

Hezekiah,
OK, I'll agree that the first two paragraphs of the article, which you quoted, point to a political campaign. However, the rest of the article, which you thought better to leave out, points to a cultural attack on Christianity.

I guess time will only tell if she and Fineman are right about the political campaign.

tgamble

>>Please give an example of someone mocking Christianity or Christian values. I like to keep track.>>>

George Carlin.

In the Bullshit Department, a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman.
'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bullshit,
big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time
champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No
contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an
invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute
of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does
not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special
place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he
will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry
forever and ever 'til the end of time!


But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money!
He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't
handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and
they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story.
Holy Shit!


But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when
it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried
to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and
likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried
to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look
around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.


Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth,
poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is
definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am
not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme
Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad
attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy
would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I
say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if
there is a God, it has to be a man.


No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God,
I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent,
and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I
admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.


So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and
aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some
spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit, I decided to look
around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.


And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became
a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But
first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons.
First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could
mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something,
I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I
can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers
in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At
least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply
because they don't agree with us.


Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry,
no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a
special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the
best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm
a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me
fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I
wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.


I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking
trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging
for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And
most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And
it's no way to treat a friend.


But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know,
your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for
defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot
little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the
eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And
I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about
the Divine Plan?


Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave
it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And
for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine.
Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want
isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just
for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the
use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can
come along and fuck up Your Plan?


And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your
prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will
Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to
anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big
waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to
His Will? It's all very confusing.


So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said,
I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons:
First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he
looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. In
fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having
trouble with.


For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the
barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's
amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.


So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I
noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I
now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half
the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same
as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's
foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your
fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just
pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.


And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary
qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want
to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending,
I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it
does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the
grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way.


And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty
Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's
men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is
no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was. In
fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this
audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All
right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God,
may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little
cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm
okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all
very much. Joe Bless You!

<a href="http://www.valleyskeptic.com/george.htm" target="_blank">http://www.valleyskeptic.com/george.htm</a>

SLD

Allright, Gene, I'll give you a break. Check out the following web site: <a href="http://www.secularsouth.org" target="_blank">www.secularsouth.org</a> and click on the article entitled: James Madison's Legacy: Freedom of Conscience. Tell me if it doesn't adequately refute your articles on Barton et al.

The source of my Bush comment, believe it or not, is this web site. But I can't remember where on it. Anyone? You may be right, it does bear further scrutiny. Let me check Google.

Ahh ahh. Check out this web site <a href="http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aa011.htm" target="_blank">http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aa011.htm</a>

This is the source. While the article is by Madilyn Murray O'hair, the source is a journalist.

Anyway it drives forward the point. Linda Bowles is claiming that there is an attack on religion in this country. Technically, she is right. There has been an ongoing attack on religion since Thomas Paine came to our shores some 200 plus years ago. But it's called free speech; and it is hardly a threat to peoples' religious beliefs if you look around. Look at her quote from Earl Warren. Yes, if a Supreme Court nominee said something of that nature, he would be lambasted by many intellectual leaders in this country such as from the ACLU, or Alan Dershowitz. But these people are hardly people of power in our society. Power flows from our elected officials and they have almost all jumped on the bandwagon of self proclaimed faith and courted the religious right. Democrats and Republicans alike. What if that nominee said the opposite? "I believe that our government is in no way founded upon the Christian religion. It makes no difference whether my neighbor believes in one god, twenty gods, or no god; it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." He would never even be nominated. If he were nominated and then said it, he would be not be confirmed by our Senate. He would be ridiculed by the intolerant religious right. If he ran for office he would be overwhelmingly defeated. He would however be right. Yet according to Linda Bowles, it is the Christians in this country who are being persecuted.

SLD

HRG

Nazis were theists (Christians or believers in "Providence", a "Supreme Being" etc.) - and Communism has often been described as a secular religion.

Regards,
HRG.

Euromutt

Nazis were anything they wanted to be; Catholic, Lutheran, agnostic, whatever. The issue is that even if the Nazis had been atheists (and if they were, why did Wehrmacht belt buckles read Gott mit uns - "God [be] with us" - ?) their agenda was not based on atheism, but on "racial superiority" of people of Germanic ethnicity and loyalty to the Führer.
Likewise, Stalinist, Maoist and "Kimist" (to coin a phrase for North Korea's brand of communism) doctrine is not based on an agenda of atheism, but of loyalty to the Party in general, and the Great Helmsman/Great Leader of the Revolution/etc. in particular. Persecution of religious groups under such régimes is not because they are religious per se, but because they profess loyalty to what they perceive to be a higher authority; thereby they become disloyal, and therefore subversive. Note that communist régimes will equally persecute a dissident who is an atheist (frequently more so) as they will a religious dissident.

A group like Islamic Jihad, on the other hand, already makes quite clear by its name that its agenda is founded upon religion (twisted as its interpretation of that religion might be).

Toto

<a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=54&t=000044" target="_blank">A thread in the Rants, Raves & Preaching forum</a> seems to be on topic here.

ChurchOfBruce

Everybody is, to some degree, a moral relativist. Christian, atheist, whatever.

In fact, moral relativism is most apparent in modern society's dealing with Judeo-Christian moral teachings. Let's see--we've got this all important list of Ten Commandments, so crucial to Judeo-Christian teaching that people want to hang it in courthouses.

So, we've got this list of commandments. Let's take a look at it. Hmm, over here we've got 'thou shalt not take the lord's name in vain'. OK, and over here we've got 'thou shalt not murder'. Hmmm. Does *anybody* think these two are morally equivalent? Would anyone, even a devout Christian, equate cursing to murder? The Ten Commandments does.

Let's check out another one: 'keep holy the Sabbath day'. For Christians, that would be Sunday. That was yesterday. Like every Sunday, I worked in the store I work at. Like every Sunday, we were *mobbed*. Unless one can 'keep holy the Sabbath' by *shopping*, there's another of those all-important moral teachings that is routinely ignored. It's, at least, taken far less seriously than 'thou shalt not steal'.

Now, there are some things that approach 'universal moral truths', but they are fewer than most people realise. Everybody has their own code of morality. Even if it might be influenced by Judeo-Christian teaching, it is personal to the holder. If there were a universal moral code, we'd hear Christians pushing for life in prison for cursing, shopping on Sundays, and disrespecting your parents, just like we have for murder.

--Frank

lpetrich

Depends on what one considers "morality".

All George Washington was saying, if he had ever said that, was that religion is desirable as the Opium of the People, which has been a very common opinion in centuries past. Several Classical Greek and Roman authors had gone on record as stating that superstitious forms of religion are false, but nevertheless useful for making people virtuous. So it would not be surprising if GW had agreed.

This is absolute horse manure, since GW was advocating only an opium-for-the-people view of religion.

What does that have to do with Christianity as commonly understood? What "fromtheright" considers "decency" and "marital fidelity" could easily coexist with the view that Jesus Christ was a false prophet or even a myth.

Also, I don't see how sex between two people without other commitments qualifies as "marital infidelity". To me, "marital infidelity" is not sex but cheating on one's partner.

Who is doing that? Who is saying that there is a God but that Jesus Christ was a kooky cultist who deserved to be executed?

Fromtheright, tell that to conservative hero Margaret Thatcher, who has claimed that there is no such thing as society. And tell that to financier of conservative politicians Rupert Murdoch, who runs an empire of sleazy tabloid "newspapers".

Do they make fun of:
Deserting one's family
Giving money to poor people
Loving one's enemies
Drinking lots of wine
Not planning for the future
Not trying to earn one's living
Trusting God to rain money down on you
Avoiding the use of impressive-sounding but meaningless words in prayers
???

(yes, I can quote chapter and verse on every one of these)

Cry me a river, fromtheright. If you are too lazy to build your own media empire and outcompete the existing ones, it's not my problem.

How is it that the most pious areas are the areas with the most sinners? That can't be a coincidence, can it?

[quote]
turtonm:
Consider in the SOuth, the most religious part of our nation, we have the highest levels of violence, murder, racism, illegitimacy, divorce, crime, suicide, pollution, and the lowest levels of education, pay, worker protection, environmental protection, and so forth. In every aspect of moral behavior, the south is inferior to the north, and the US, more religious than any industrialized nation, is inferior to almost all of them.

fromtheright:
The last time I checked those problems exist in cities throughout the country, such as Washington, D.C. ...
[quote]

However, the poorer areas in such places have the most professed piety -- consider all the storefront churches in poor, crime-ridden neighborhoods.

ChurchOfBruce

One thing about regional "sin" rates:

I had heard a statistic, but wasn't sure about it, so I checked. The state with the lowest divorce rate in the US is my home state, Massachusetts. If you can find a more secular state in the US, good luck. Heck, even our *Republicans* are pro-gay-rights, pro-choice, pro-sex-ed, etc. There isn't a less conservative-religious state in the union, unless it's Vermont. Other states in the top ten lowest divorce rates include Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, and Pennsylvania. The bottom ten? Arkansas, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Alabama, Florida--you know, the "bible belt".

Nevada was, however, the highest &lt;G&gt;.

Found this here: <a href="http://www.divorcereform.org/94staterates.html" target="_blank">http://www.divorcereform.org/94staterates.html</a>


Another one is teen birth rates. We're fourth lowest, after New Hampshire, Vermont, and North Dakota, and just ahead of Maine, Minnesota, New Jersey and Connecticut.

The bottom ten? The usual suspects: South Carolina, Tennesse, Alabama, Nevada, Louisiana, Texas. Washington DC is the highest, Mississippi is tne next highest.

That one is here:
<a href="http://www.teenpregnancy.org/tbrank.htm" target="_blank">http://www.teenpregnancy.org/tbrank.htm</a>

--Frank

Ysabella

fromtheright, do you mean people on TV literally making fun of Christianity, or do you mean making light of opposing/ignoring morals that you perceive as being uniquely Christian?