Muffinstuffer

First, notwithstanding the recent situation, I don't see where you are coming up with the 'misguided sincerity' bit. I have NEVER made it a secret that while I may not come here to actively witness - and no one has seen me doing so, I believe (although I HAVE discussed my faith and have pointed out what I believe in general - if you wish to call that 'witnessing' I can't stop you), I do hope that my character in general somehow reflects my faith.

I don't recall asking anyone to applaud my efforts (although I appreciate it when they are ), nor do I recall asking anyone to forgive me (haha) for being a Christian. Everyone here can hate me, and I'll somehow manage to make it through the day. While I recognize that sometimes I will engage in theological discussions here, I DID in fact come here because of the dialog, of the discussion of many different topics - some including my beliefs, some not - and so on and so forth. Simply by virtue of the fact that I'm a Christian, people seem unwilling to believe that I would [sarcasm]occasionally[/sarcasm] like to engage in intelligent discussions.

Muffinstuffer

So here's the problem (and I know that R'BAC and I may disagree on this issue, but that's ok).....if I DO 'proselytize' then I'm viewed as intolerant by the rest of the world - or I am as far as you are concerned. If I do NOT 'proselytize' then I'm going against the Great Commission, which is (arguably) one of the major reasons we (Christians) are here in the first place.

So it would seem to me that I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. (Pun intended. ) So how does one rectify that? I can't accept "Sorry, but you should just shut up and never try to discuss or spread the word about your faith" because again, it's part of the reason (arguably, again) Christians exist.

Sabine Grant

bonjour Michael.... I think Rational BAC was pointing to the efforts Muffin placed in presenting his convictions. I personaly respect people who can defend their convictions even though I may disagree with them. A bit of the chevalresque spirit I guess...
As far as the example you use.... a teacher who would ignore the efforts and hard work of a student and focus soly on the test result to evaluate the potential and character of that student needs to be looking for another job IMO.
It is a matter of appreciating efforts... not validating what Muffin presents. One can dismiss the content of a message yet validate the messenger.
In any case... is not the need to feel appreciated one of the most important needs among human beings?
This is a call from Rational BAC to appreciate one another no matter how much disagreement we may have.

Starboy

Muffin, I think you have identified all the salient issues. As a particular kind of Christian you are commanded to proselytize but as a tolerant human you must respect people's choices (as long as they don't impede your choices) and not try to convince them to adopt yours either passively or aggressively. I think in polite company no one should stop discussing something, unless they are honor bound not to, and all parties agree to discuss it, but when it comes to religion all parties should remain aloof to the idea of converting anyone. If it happens it happens. I would think that treating your faith as part of a multi-tiered marketing campaign cheapens you and your religion. After all if your faith is all that great it should sell itself.

Also please understand as an atheist I could care less what you think your god commands you to do. It does concern me however when those of your kind start pissing off large groups of people both here and around the world because you can’t behave politely. When I travel abroad it is not my mission to bring them the American way but to appreciate their culture.

Starboy

Muffinstuffer

Well, there is part of the problem, though. Obviously it is my own choice to adopt the beliefs and the faith that I have, and that choice is directly in conflict with what you believe a 'tolerant' human being should do. So again, I'm sort of damned if I do, and damned if I do not.

I would, however, like to point out that as I've said before, 99.9% of the time, any conversions that happen as a result of talking to me about my faith almost ALWAYS are initiated by the other person, believe it or not. Our discussion will wander towards religion, and inevitably, someone will ask me what I believe, and I'll state it. I don't go beyond that UNLESS someone asks me to tell them more. When that occurs, in my opinion, while it is not exactly a warrant to just cut loose on the guy, it is consent for me to discuss my personal faith to a degree without having to worry about if I am offending the person.

Well, I would also ask you to understand (and I do not mean this in a personal way so please do not take offense) that I care less about what the vast majority of people think I should do. Behaving politely, being 'tolerant', being a 'nice human being' are all somewhat subjective depending upon whose point of view they are coming from, and while I can guarantee you I do not ride hither and yon screaming "Repent Ye for the Kingdom of God is at hand", I'm not going to stop believing in what I believe, and talking to people about what I believe if asked, because people think I'm being intolerant.

Muffinstuffer

This I agree with 100%. Obviously what I think and believe about many different things does not go hand in hand with what the vast majority of people on this website think and believe, but despite that fact, I never hold those thoughts and beliefs and opinions against anybody, and I can honestly say I appreciate and respect the efforts of those who converse with me.

Sabine Grant

Bonjour Starboy..... I must applaude you for being a culture explorer as you travel overseas. There is unfortunatly a perception of the " ugly american" in some European countries because of the difficuties some american visitors have in feeling secure in a foreign culture. Some seek to find what is familiar to them i.e rushing to the local Mac Do... rather than exploring boldly the non english translated local menu. Language has a lot to do with that insecurity. ( it is my expererience while I was in the american military community in Italy that the americans who made the effort to learn italian could mingle and feel secure with italian culture and truly appreciate it)
I also appreciate your analysis that a strong and secure faith speaks for itself. In fact, the term " silent witness" is often applied by some christians. It is the least offensive way a believer will demonstrate the impact his faith will have on the way he will interact and treat others.
There is unfortunatly a lot of peer pressure from other christians on a " silent witness" christian. It is often assumed for example by other christians that I ought to hammer my beliefs into the mind of my patients.
I think the correct balance between extremes such as evangelizing by heavy duty preaching resides in the non believer seeking to know.....in that sense it cannot be offensive or impolite as a person desires to know what the cause for a believer's behavior may be.

Starboy

Muffinstuffer, you epitomize what is wrong with Christianity in a free society. In order for a society to remain free everyone must respect the rights of everyone else, not 99.99999% of the time but 100% of the time. We are not arguing over whether or not you are intolerant, only the degree to which you are intolerant. Muffinstuffer, you are one of the reasons why I don't think that a good Christian can be a good American. We only have freedom in as much as each and every one of us respects the freedoms of every other American. That means we don't mess with peoples beliefs or lack thereof. I can't make this any clearer than that. This one aspect of Christianity alone is enough to make me say that Christians suck! If only it were the only reason.

Starboy

Muffinstuffer

So you are telling me that DESPITE the fact that I almost NEVER witness to anyone UNLESS they talk to me first....the fact that I do OCCASIONALLY (and I do mean OCCASIONALLY) equates to me epitomizing what is wrong with Christianity?

As Voltaire has often been misquoted as saying, "I disagree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it."

Starboy

Lets not beat around the bush, proselytizing even occasionally is intolerant. With so many Americans being Christian, each Christian doesn't have to do it often for it to become very offensive to the rest of us. The point that many of us have been trying to make but appears to be lost on you is that all of us have heard the good news many times before. Your efforts are not needed or appreciated. If the shoe were on the other foot I think you might be able to understand what I am saying. I am more than happy to accept you as you are. I would hope you could learn to return the same respect to me that I accord you. If you can’t then you should understand that there is no reason for me to respect you or your beliefs.

Starboy