Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 06-06-2003, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
He lost his mortal life, and suffered the most excrutiating torture in human history ( yes more so than anyone else, not just because of the physical wounds, but the emotional and mental as well - so much stress that he sweat blood before the execution)

I don't understand how anyone could worship a God that requires, as payment for anything, "the most excrutiating torture in human history."

God didn't require it, He did it on our behalf. God requires that we obey the law and not break it, or we have to face His judgement. Since God knew we wouldn't obey Him, the only other option was for God to fulfill the law Himself and pay our debt back for breaking those laws.

Magus55 · 06-06-2003, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
In other words, as Koy says, "God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself."

No, God came to Earth as a human and died by our hands to make ammends for breaking His Laws.

Mageth · 06-06-2003, 01:16 PM

But "therefore he lowered himself from God the Father and became His "Son"" seems to directly conflict with "Jesus = God. Jesus is just God in human form."

Biff the unclean · 06-06-2003, 01:23 PM

God created the law
And then neglected to tell anyone on the planet except a bunch of camel herders in a desert somewhere to the right of the Mediterranean Sea
and is required by His divine nature
This "nature" means only "he felt like it"
to punish law breakers.
Even though he refused to tell them what the law was.
"Hello, is this Kamehameha? Hi, God here, I'm like to clue you Hawaiians in on just what is expected of you."

However, with all of humanity being sinful, and not obeying God - we can't fulfill the law on our own.
Except the Jews who God told how to atone but neglected to tell if they had an after life or not.

Only God could fulfill it for us.
Which would be the way he designed it to be.
So God came to Earth in human form and fulfilled the law perfectly
By disavowing his Mom, killing a whole herd of pigs that belonged to some farmer, blasting another farmer's fig tree, inducing his friends to desert their wives and children, taking a bull whip to a bunch of honest merchants and wrecking their place of business, urging his countrymen to kowtow to foreign invaders, etc.
therefore, His death is sufficient to take the place of our sins
But he didn't stay dead. Late Friday afternoon to before dawn on Sunday--big hairy deal.
If he was God that this is a pitiful joke.
because He did what no one else can do - completely fulfill the law and be perfect.
So freaking what? This makes God out to be a complete idiot ! Why do you keep doing this? First you make God out to be psychotic and now he's a fool by your telling. Why are you doing this?

Mageth · 06-06-2003, 01:23 PM

God didn't require it, He did it on our behalf.

If god didn't require it, then why bring up the "suffered the most" bit? Why did he have to suffer the most? Why couldn't he have been beheaded or suffered some other quick fate?

Or, better yet, and getting back to the topic, why couldn't Jesus have just died of old age, without being sacrificed?

And if he didn't require it, why did you say "Basically, God created the law and is required by His divine nature to punish law breakers"?

God requires that we obey the law and not break it, or we have to face His judgement.

There's that damned requirement again...

Since God knew we wouldn't obey Him, the only other option was for God to fulfill the law Himself and pay our debt back for breaking those laws.

Since he created the world knowing that we wouldn't obey him, and since, as you said, "God created the law", it seems like there might have been some other options open to him...

Mageth · 06-06-2003, 01:27 PM

No, God came to Earth as a human and died by our hands to make ammends for breaking His Laws.

That gets back to the point of this thread - why did god require a man-god sacrifice??? Why did god set up "His Laws" so that a human (perfect or not) had to be sacrificed by other humans to appease god's wrath at our breaking of his laws?

And god supposedly voluntarily "died by our hands"; we didn't force him to do it, right? So one can say that god sacrificed himself. And the sacrifice was to himself. And was intended to save us from himself.

Magus55 · 06-06-2003, 02:01 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Biff the unclean

Quote:

Without bothering to let the Jews know?
So was Original Sin � retroactive or did it only apply to people born after 33CE?

Um He did tell the Jews, most of them just have too much pride and ignore the truth. They think they are exempt from salvation because they are the chosen ones.

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Quote:

No, not at all. The Old Covenant includes the ability to atone for your sins yourself. Have you never even met a Jew?

I am a Jew! The Old Covenant was done away with because no one could follow the laws - that method of atonement no longer applies. It symbolized, the true atonement to come through Jesus Christ. The sacrificing of animals was a substitution for the true Sacrifice of the perfect Son of God - why do you think Jesus is called the Lamb of God? Because the Jews used to sacrifice lambs for God, since Jesus hadn't come yet - when Jesus died - He was the final and perfect "Lamb" that the Jews had been substituting for.

Quote:

But there was no unplayable debt. The Jews never heard of such a thing.

Yes they did, See above - Jews have the NT just like non-Jews.

Quote:

Which has nothing to do with Judaism.

It most certaintly does - it has more to do with them than anything else. Christianity revolves around Judaism and Israel.

Mageth · 06-06-2003, 02:05 PM

why do you think Jesus is called the Lamb of God?

Because it sounds better than the "kid of god" or the "bullock of god"?

Biff the unclean · 06-06-2003, 02:06 PM

There's that damned requirement again...
Maybe it's a metaphor�what the Hell every other contradiction in the bible is one, or so I'm told.

For instance, since it's Friday I am required to stop off after work and have a martini with my friends.
There is no authority over me that requires me to have one, I just want to. Maybe we should make that two, they are kind of small.
Since there is no authority over God to require him to do anything then it must mean that he just likes torturing innocent people. Why Magus 55 hates God so much that he portrays him as a monster I have no idea.

---------
I like to have a martini,
Two at the very most,
Three and I'm under the table,
Four and I'm under my host,
----Dorothy Parker

Magus55 · 06-06-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
[B]There's that damned requirement again...
Maybe it's a metaphor�what the Hell every other contradiction in the bible is one, or so I'm told.

For instance, since it's Friday I am required to stop off after work and have a martini with my friends.
There is no authority over me that requires me to have one, I just want to. Maybe we should make that two, they are kind of small.
Since there is no authority over God to require him to do anything then it must mean that he just likes torturing innocent people. Why Magus 55 hates God so much that he portrays him as a monster I have no idea.

Wrong, God does have an authority - Himself. God can't not be Just and punish law-breakers - it goes against His righteous and Holy nature. Can a police officer not arrest a bank robber? Can a Judge let a proven-guilty murderer go without any repercussions? They can't, because its part of their character and nature - the only difference is, they can change jobs and aren't perfect - God's nature is eternal and perfect.

I know theology is too hard for you all to grasp, but at least try - or if your only purpose of making these sarcastic, redundant remarks is to mock me - then keep it to yourself or let me know so I can stop wasting my time and put you on ignore.

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06-06-2003, 01:16 PM	#33
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	But "therefore he lowered himself from God the Father and became His "Son"" seems to directly conflict with "Jesus = God. Jesus is just God in human form."

06-06-2003, 01:23 PM	#34
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	God created the law And then neglected to tell anyone on the planet except a bunch of camel herders in a desert somewhere to the right of the Mediterranean Sea and is required by His divine nature This "nature" means only "he felt like it" to punish law breakers. Even though he refused to tell them what the law was. "Hello, is this Kamehameha? Hi, God here, I'm like to clue you Hawaiians in on just what is expected of you." However, with all of humanity being sinful, and not obeying God - we can't fulfill the law on our own. Except the Jews who God told how to atone but neglected to tell if they had an after life or not. Only God could fulfill it for us. Which would be the way he designed it to be. So God came to Earth in human form and fulfilled the law perfectly By disavowing his Mom, killing a whole herd of pigs that belonged to some farmer, blasting another farmer's fig tree, inducing his friends to desert their wives and children, taking a bull whip to a bunch of honest merchants and wrecking their place of business, urging his countrymen to kowtow to foreign invaders, etc. therefore, His death is sufficient to take the place of our sins But he didn't stay dead. Late Friday afternoon to before dawn on Sunday--big hairy deal. If he was God that this is a pitiful joke. because He did what no one else can do - completely fulfill the law and be perfect. So freaking what? This makes God out to be a complete idiot ! Why do you keep doing this? First you make God out to be psychotic and now he's a fool by your telling. Why are you doing this?

06-06-2003, 01:27 PM	#36
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	No, God came to Earth as a human and died by our hands to make ammends for breaking His Laws. That gets back to the point of this thread - why did god require a man-god sacrifice??? Why did god set up "His Laws" so that a human (perfect or not) had to be sacrificed by other humans to appease god's wrath at our breaking of his laws? And god supposedly voluntarily "died by our hands"; we didn't force him to do it, right? So one can say that god sacrificed himself. And the sacrifice was to himself. And was intended to save us from himself.

06-06-2003, 02:05 PM	#38
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	why do you think Jesus is called the Lamb of God? Because it sounds better than the "kid of god" or the "bullock of god"?

06-06-2003, 02:06 PM	#39
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	There's that damned requirement again... Maybe it's a metaphor�what the Hell every other contradiction in the bible is one, or so I'm told. For instance, since it's Friday I am required to stop off after work and have a martini with my friends. There is no authority over me that requires me to have one, I just want to. Maybe we should make that two, they are kind of small. Since there is no authority over God to require him to do anything then it must mean that he just likes torturing innocent people. Why Magus 55 hates God so much that he portrays him as a monster I have no idea. --------- I like to have a martini, Two at the very most, Three and I'm under the table, Four and I'm under my host, ----Dorothy Parker

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