bocajeff

But even if a supernatural event were 100% verified, how do you know it's the work of God and not just some random super powerful being who may just be trying to trick you into thinking he is God?

rdalin

Thinking it over, and reading the post after yours from madmardigan, I think I'm withdrawing it. I could probably set up conditions with witnesses, but as you say there are problems with that, and I agree with madmardigan that the boiling could be caused by some super-powerful alien with knowledge of physics that humanity doesn't know (sounds like a Star Trek episode, doesn't it?). Doesn't prove that a supernatural being exists, unfortunately.

I think I'll go back to the standard, which I think someone posted earlier in this thread and
I've seen elsewhere - an omniscient and omnipotent entity could figure out a way to prove its existence. I'm perfectly content to wait for that to happen (although I'll keep busy with other things in the meantime).

rdalin

As I said in my reply to Ab-Normal, I don't. I keep thinking of Arthur C. Clarke's third (I think) law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. That certainly applies in this case.

Starspun

Perhaps if a 'being' took one of my ribs (and I lived) I would be in surprised shock.

If said being took the rib, gathered some dust, and formed a woman, I would gaze in wild wonder.

If the woman had the body/looks of Tyra Banks and the mind of Sandra Bullock, I would fall to my knees in utter awe and reverance.

If Tyra Bullock and I were both 'blessed' with eternal, natural life bound together forever, I would worship that being as God.

A bright ass halo would be a plus.

MrDarwin

What it all boils down to is one question: does God want us to believe? Because this leads to another important question: if the stakes are so high, why doesn't this God do what it takes for us to believe? I can only conclude that (1) God does not want us to believe, (2) God does not care whether we believe or not, or (3) there is no God to believe in (at least not as described in the Christian bible).

sighhswolf

I've never seen a "miracle".
I've never seen anything that I would consider to be "supernatural".
I have seen death up close and personal and have waited and watched for some kind of indication that a lifeforce continued after the body died, but have observed nothing but the last gasp of breath, the glazing of the eyes and the gradual decrease in the body temperature.
I have spent hours in prayer.
I have taken much time to meditate and ponder the
scriptures.
I searched the holy books and manuscripts for some kind of truth but have found none.

When I cried out for help, there was none.
When I asked for understanding, it was not forthcoming.
When I begged for the "spirit" to enlighten me, I remained in darkness.

When I thought that hard work and dedication to the principles of christianity and an effort to live as Jesus did would protect me and those I love and care for from harm and provide comfort in times of severe trouble and stress, I was proven time and time again to be wrong.
There was no protection from the undesirable effects of "evil" in the cold light of reality.
Now I am convinced there is no evil....there is no good...there are only desirable and undesirable actions and reactions.

When I asked why good people suffer and die while
people who care about nothing but their own survival and ambitions prosper, I was admonished
not to question the ways of god, he knows what is best for us all.
And when I asked the representatives of god on earth why my prayers were never answered, I was told that I would never be able to understand the ways of this god.
That I had not given enough effort to deserve the Almighty's assistance.
That my spirit lacked humility and I had not fully given myself over to the will of this god.

And you ask, "What would it take for me to believe?"
When needless horrors destruction and death cease to control the world and the reality we inhabit.
When humans look at each other and see other humans, instead of enemies and ethnicity and gender.
When there is an end to the undeserved gains of
those who exist outside of the acceptable conduct of society and it's laws.
When punishment gives way to real tangible rehabilitation.
And when the poor and starving humans on this earth are fed and clothed and the old people are treated with the respect and kindness they deserve.
When this supposed supernatural, benevolent father figure, creator of the universe, says to all of humanity together with no mistake of who and what he is:
"I love you no matter who you are, what you are, what you have done, or what you have not done, because you are my children. I give you true unconditional love and acceptance."

That is when I will believe......not before.

Wolf

Perchance

I don't know if I could believe in a specific god at first. Probably the god would need to overcome my skepticism about the supernatural. If I could see (and confirm with my own senses, and with the help of several other people, and with technology such as tape recorders and video cameras) a creature that I knew does not exist and violates physical laws by existing, that would be a start.

A winged, fire-breathing dragon is a good example of this (the way it is portrayed in some fantasy novels, at least- hundreds of feet long, covered with armored scales, not undergoing any special adaptations to breathe fire). Doesn't exist, too heavy to fly if it did, possibly too large to survive on land. If something like that appeared and continued to exist, violating physical laws calmly all over the place, then I would accept the existence of at least one supernatural thing.

Another example would be psychic powers proved and used in a scientifically controlled setting, a la James Randi's challenge. However, that might be less convincing depending on the form of it, since one could say that it was just a hitherto unknown property of the human brain and not anything that violated physical constraints. So something like pyrokinesis that did not depend on, say, moving the molecules faster in order to create heat, but just apparently pulled fire from non-existence into existence, would be an example.

I'm not sure what it would take for me to accept a specific god.

-Perchance.

Not Prince Hamlet

An omnipotent being would be able to demonstrate it in such a way that the distinction would be clear.

That's what I love about the claim that the Judeo-Christian God is omnipotent: it allows me to put all of the burden on God. If He existed, he could make it so that people had free will and yet never had to go to Hell. If he existed, he could make it so that there were no "translation errors" in the Bible, etc.

Jeff

Ronin

I have held a dear child in my arms as he convulsed in agony and then died ~ looking me in the eyes.

There is no God.

I'm so sorry.

[ October 19, 2002: Message edited by: Ronin ]</p>

Walross

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't know about god, but any being wanting to convince me that it created the universe would have to provide easy to follow, step-by-step instructions for the procedure. I realize that creating a universe may be a difficult thing to do, but if such a being is "god", making the instructions simple shouldn't be a problem. Anything less than this is just parlor tricks.

Walross