Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Bobby Llama · 09-09-2002, 04:28 PM

Was the betrayal by Judas really a betrayal at all? After all, he was just going along with "God's plan."

And if it was, is he supposed to be held responsible for it? Once again, he was just going through predetermined actions. It just doesn't make sense to me that such an important player in the whole Jesus story should be held among the most 'damned.'

Peter Kirby · 09-09-2002, 06:15 PM

Although Dante placed Judas in the last circle of the damned, along with the traitors of Caesar, not everyone thought that Judas was going to hell. J. Ellsworth Kalas writes:

"Origen, the third-century philosopher, found a 'how' [for the salvation of Judas]: He said that when Judas realized what he had done, he hurried to so that he might meet Jesus in Hades, the abode of the , and there bare his soul and seek his Lord's forgiveness (Origen, Sermons on Matthew, 35, cited in William Barclay, The Master's Men, Abingdon Press, 1959, page 80)." (_The Thirteen Apostles_, p. 99)

best,
Peter Kirby

offa · 09-10-2002, 06:49 PM

offa;
Dante was a few centuries too late, and you had better change your reading material. Sorry about all the time you have spent barking up the wrong tree. Judas Iscariot was crucified along with Jesus and Simon Magus. Judas hung himself on a cross ... not a rope around the neck. Judas, Jesus, and the angel Simon Magus were all given live burial and that infamous Friday. Jesus and Simon were rescued (ransome paid) and Judas was thrown over the cliff to the shores of the Dead Sea

Peter Kirby · 09-10-2002, 07:41 PM

offa writes:

Dante was a few centuries too late

Do you think I was attempting to use Dante as a source for history?

best,
Peter Kirby

offa · 09-11-2002, 05:13 PM

offa;
Yes, I thought you were using Dante as a source for history. BTW Peter Kirby ... I apologize for being abrupt on that post. I finished a very long day as a laborer. I had planned to edit but said, "the hell with it, I'm too tired." I appreciate the excellent job you are doing.
I just got home and opened old mail and all I can say is, "Eureka! I have found it!" OUR MAN IN JUDEA by Janet Tyson. Here are some excerpts I just have to share. for I am riled by the shortsightedness of those academics who have spent decades shuffleing and reshuffleing the same old 'evidence', coming up with the same old interpretations, while failing to satisfactorily answer some of the most basic questionis concerning Jesus and othe characters of the New Testiment, especially in the Fourth Gospel. ... I am convinced, however, that the status quo is often, and especially in this field, unsatisfactory. (pg ii)

This is the book I have been waiting for, waiting for years for. I will read, reread, this book and correct Janet at each opportunity. The Book of John was written first and written by J.C. himself!

Gotta Go .... Offa

Jamie_L · 09-13-2002, 09:30 AM

As I said in the other recent Judas thread: Judas took one for the team.

Yea, Judas!

Jamie

excreationist · 09-13-2002, 03:25 PM

Don't forget that Judas was also possessed by Satan himself (not just any old demon) - twice!

Luke 22:3-4 - "Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus."

John 13:27 - "As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him."

offa · 09-13-2002, 05:00 PM

offa;
Jesus is real. He was crucified and survived.
Iscariot was crucified with him and then murdered.
Satan is imaginary. Mary is not a virgin. Jesus feet were not pierced. St. Paul married Jesus daughter and got his head shorn. Jesus remarried.

MortalWombat · 09-14-2002, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by offa:
<strong>offa;
Jesus is real. He was crucified and survived.
Iscariot was crucified with him and then murdered.
Satan is imaginary. Mary is not a virgin. Jesus feet were not pierced. St. Paul married Jesus daughter and got his head shorn. Jesus remarried.</strong>

Film at 11:00.

offa · 09-16-2002, 12:58 AM

offa; The book I am reading by Janet Tyson is quite disappointing. She is a "fundie". Her assertions about Jesus being a Samaritan and about Moses having Aaron killed are correct, but, she does not have a clue about pesher. She does not know who Lazarus is nor does she understand the relationship between Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and Martha. She has watched too many soaps.

09-09-2002, 04:28 PM	#1
The Bobby Llama Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: EC, WI Posts: 87	Judas the traitor? Was the betrayal by Judas really a betrayal at all? After all, he was just going along with "God's plan." And if it was, is he supposed to be held responsible for it? Once again, he was just going through predetermined actions. It just doesn't make sense to me that such an important player in the whole Jesus story should be held among the most 'damned.'

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09-09-2002, 06:15 PM	#2
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Although Dante placed Judas in the last circle of the damned, along with the traitors of Caesar, not everyone thought that Judas was going to hell. J. Ellsworth Kalas writes: "Origen, the third-century philosopher, found a 'how' [for the salvation of Judas]: He said that when Judas realized what he had done, he hurried to so that he might meet Jesus in Hades, the abode of the , and there bare his soul and seek his Lord's forgiveness (Origen, Sermons on Matthew, 35, cited in William Barclay, The Master's Men, Abingdon Press, 1959, page 80)." (_The Thirteen Apostles_, p. 99) best, Peter Kirby

09-10-2002, 06:49 PM	#3
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	offa; Dante was a few centuries too late, and you had better change your reading material. Sorry about all the time you have spent barking up the wrong tree. Judas Iscariot was crucified along with Jesus and Simon Magus. Judas hung himself on a cross ... not a rope around the neck. Judas, Jesus, and the angel Simon Magus were all given live burial and that infamous Friday. Jesus and Simon were rescued (ransome paid) and Judas was thrown over the cliff to the shores of the Dead Sea

09-10-2002, 07:41 PM	#4
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	offa writes: Dante was a few centuries too late Do you think I was attempting to use Dante as a source for history? best, Peter Kirby

09-11-2002, 05:13 PM	#5
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	offa; Yes, I thought you were using Dante as a source for history. BTW Peter Kirby ... I apologize for being abrupt on that post. I finished a very long day as a laborer. I had planned to edit but said, "the hell with it, I'm too tired." I appreciate the excellent job you are doing. I just got home and opened old mail and all I can say is, "Eureka! I have found it!" OUR MAN IN JUDEA by Janet Tyson. Here are some excerpts I just have to share. for I am riled by the shortsightedness of those academics who have spent decades shuffleing and reshuffleing the same old 'evidence', coming up with the same old interpretations, while failing to satisfactorily answer some of the most basic questionis concerning Jesus and othe characters of the New Testiment, especially in the Fourth Gospel. ... I am convinced, however, that the status quo is often, and especially* in this field, unsatisfactory. (pg ii)* This is the book I have been waiting for, waiting for years for. I will read, reread, this book and correct Janet at each opportunity. The Book of John was written first and written by J.C. himself! Gotta Go .... Offa

09-13-2002, 09:30 AM	#6
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	As I said in the other recent Judas thread: Judas took one for the team. Yea, Judas! Jamie

09-13-2002, 03:25 PM	#7
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	Don't forget that Judas was also possessed by Satan himself (not just any old demon) - twice! Luke 22:3-4 - "Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus." John 13:27 - "As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him."

09-13-2002, 05:00 PM	#8
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	offa; Jesus is real. He was crucified and survived. Iscariot was crucified with him and then murdered. Satan is imaginary. Mary is not a virgin. Jesus feet were not pierced. St. Paul married Jesus daughter and got his head shorn. Jesus remarried.

09-16-2002, 12:58 AM	#10
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	offa; The book I am reading by Janet Tyson is quite disappointing. She is a "fundie". Her assertions about Jesus being a Samaritan and about Moses having Aaron killed are correct, but, she does not have a clue about pesher. She does not know who Lazarus is nor does she understand the relationship between Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and Martha. She has watched too many soaps.

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