CJD

At the risk of oversimplification:

Fr. Andrew wrote: I'm confused. Is there anything in Jewish scripture which speaks of the Messiah returning after a period of time to clear up unfulfilled prophecy? A "Second Coming"?

No.

And again: Or is that just Christian myth born of necessity to explain away the inconvenience of Jesus' having come and gone without the accompanying Messianic Age?

Yes (except I would place "the intervening historical contingency" where you have "away the inconvenience"). Also, by "Messianic Age," I assumed you meant the whole "beating swords into ploughshares" bit. I also assume "myth" does not mean "fairy tale."

But I fear this does little to answer your question. I mentioned your statement about the Tanak not mentioning certain things about the Second Advent because it served as an example of how not to read OT prophecy. For more details, see the threads I linked to earlier in this thread.

I have no idea what Radcliffe is talking about, either. I'd like to see if he/she could defend one point of what he/she wrote without doing violence to the biblical text.

Regards,

CJD

YHWHtruth

Some have told me the main predictions concerning the Messiah are that he will bring peace to the world, gather the Jewish people from their exile to the land of Israel and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. After Jesus' appearance, the Temple was destroyed, the Jews were exiled all over the world and we have not even had one day of peace in the past 2,000 years. Many of the wars in fact were started and fought by followers of Jesus

It is true that many of the worlds woes were started by those claiming to be Christian. But even Jesus and the rest of the New Testament writers knew of the "great apostasy." Consider:

"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and days with tears." (Acts 20:29-31) (New International Version)

"But relative to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren, not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here. Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first- that is, unless the [predicted] great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come - and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition)." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3) (Amplified Bible)
see also 2 Thessalonians 2:4-9

"Dear Friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord... These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm -shepherds who feed only themselves... These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. . .But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit." (Jude 3, 4, 12, 16-19) (New International Version)

1 Timothy 4:1-5 says:

"The Spirit distinctly says that in later times some will turn away from the faith and will heed deceitful spirits and things taught by demons though plausible liars - men with seared consciences who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by believers who know the truth. Everything God created is good; nothing is to be rejected when it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by God*s word and by prayer." (The New American Bible)
Probably the best prophecy on the Christian apostasy was spoken of by Jesus Himself at Matthew 13:24-30,36-43. Verses 24-30 read:

"Jesus told them another parable: "The Kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads,
then the weeds also appeared. The owner's servants came to him and said, "Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?" "An enemy did this", he replied. The servants asked him, "Do you want us to go and pull them up?" "No", he answered, "because while you are pulling the weeds, you root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned, then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." (New International Version)

Jesus did not leave this open to interpretation, he explains the rest:

"Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field". He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the Kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the
evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his Kingdom everything that causes sin, and all
who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."

When Jesus was on earth, he spread a specific message, "the seed of wheat", that resulted in his followers and believers, "the wheat". But when his co-workers [the apostles and the disciples died, or "went to sleep", an enemy, the Devil, now oversowed the body of believers with others, "the weeds", who were different than the original community. This resulted in a contamination of the true faith by Jesus and his original followers. Only during "the end of the age", would we see a harvesting that would bring together once again the wheat, but separate from the weeds.

YHWHtruth

To my knowledge there is no mention of a second coming in the Jewish Bible.

Then again most will just say, why couldn't G-d accomplish His goals the first time round.

One author puts it this way:

"How can God's reign have begun and yet heathendom remain unmoved? The answer is given in Daniel 7: the Reign of God would not be established easily- the one like a Son of Man must given over to tribulations for a time, two times and half a time...and only then exalted to God's presence and given the kingdom." p.52 The Myth of God Incarnate, Frances Young/John hicks editor Why must he undergo tribulations? Because of a legal principle in God's law for the nation of Israel. It states that 'life should be given for life.' (Exodus 21:23) By disobedience the perfect man Adam lost perfect life for himself and all his children. Jesus Christ gave his own perfect life to buy back what Adam lost. As the Bible explains, Jesus "gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."-1 Timothy 2:5, 6.

"The Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." Matt 20:28/1Tim 2:6
John 1:29 "Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!"
1 Cor 15:45 "The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."
1 Cor 15:22 " For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
It is only fitting that this happened on Nisan 14, the same night as the Jewish Passover.

YHWHtruth

CJD my original post had to do with the idea that that Jews state many times that the Christians distorted, changed and misinterpreted many of the Hebrew words in order to fit things into their beliefs.

The two places that are good examples.

In Psalm 22:17 the Hebrew states "hikifuni ca'ari yaday veraglay" which means "they bound me (hikifuni) like a lion (ca-like ari-lion), my hands (yaday) and my feet (ve-and raglay-my feet).
They claim the Christians translate this as "they pierced my hands and feet". And state that nowhere in the entire Torah, Prophets and Writings do the words ca'ari or hikifuny mean anything remotely resembling "pierce".

Max

Radcliffe Emerson

That's the whole point. There IS NO Messianic expectation in the Old Testament, so it's not biblical based. Therefore, the NT has no basis to stand on by mis-translating OT passages to attempt justification for Jesus.

As for defending it, ask an orthodox Rabbi. I once asked a minister why Christians don't simply ask the Jews why they never accepted Jesus, and he said noone had ever asked that question.

Well somone asked an orthodox Rabbi on beliefnet.com last year or the year before, and that was his response.

YHWHtruth

The Christian Bibles I mainly use, the New World Translation, New Revised Standard Version, Revised English Bible, New English Bible and the official Catholic Bible, the New American Bible, do not used the word "pierce" here. So much for the Christian distortion. I personally use Zechariah 12:10 here to prove my point, which is quoted later at John 19:37. What does that scripture say? "And they shall look unto me because they have THRUST him through." JPS The Hebrew word here for THRUST is DAQAR which is also translated as "piercing" in the JPS at Proverbs 22:18.

Max

Kilgore Trout

CJD said:

Interesting that you somehow understand my point that the OT prophecies about the messiah are easy to fulfill, yet can't understand that the same points show the fallacy of your explanation of OT prophecies. Correct me If I'm wrong but as I see it, you are saying that god has conditions built into the prophecies. So you are saying if a prophecy did not come true it's because one of the conditions was triggered and thus god changed his mind. I agree that god is allowed to change his mind. Like you point out in Jer 18, if god says to people "Repent or I will send a plague on you!" and the people repent of course I don't expect this "prophecy" to be "fulfilled". The big problem I have with your explanation is that your argument that ALL prophecies are conditional so ALL the ones that didn't come true were ones that god changed his mind. This is totally untenable and based on the assumption that all prophecies are legitimate words of god and none were by fakers. It, of course, also assumes there is a god in the first place. This is the same sort of reasoning that the fundies use.

This is exactly why I was saying what I did. The whole point of Deut. 18 is to point to the "false prophets." How would anybody know a false prophet if everytime his predictions didn't happen everyone just smiled and said "Well I guess god changed his mind". Apparently the people on streetcorners that say "The world will end tomorrow!" must be speaking god's word. When it doesn't come true it must be that god changed his mind. Anybody can make these type of "prophecies."

:banghead:

If I misunderstand, by all means say so. Because I can't see how your ideas make sense.


Also CJD said

Please explain your how you view the "second coming." It appears from the above quote that you see it as a myth. Is that correct? The same comments I've made about Jesus fulfilling "messianic prophecies" fits the claim that he will come back and "finish the job." Anybody can say that a messiah figure is going to come back after he dies. That is why I said the messiah will have to be universally recognized the "first" time he comes or anybody can claim to be the messiah, then say they will come back later. It doesn't make sense to have a second coming. It leaves room for false messiahs too easily.

Calzaer

How hard is this?

If Jesus failed to fulfill ANY messianic prophecy, there are only two conclusions:

1) The prophet who made the prediction was a false prophet, and the book he wrote should not be cannonical,

or

2) Jesus (or, more likely, the guy who made him up) was a liar.

You can't have it both ways. The Bible cannot be inerrant AND have Jesus not fulfill prophecy AND have Jesus be the messiah.

So did Jesus fail any prophecies?

Yup. He was never called Immaneul. Case closed. Now pick which of the two options above you'd rather believe; they can't both be false. Either Isaiah is a false prophet (and the word of God has an error), or Jesus isn't the Messiah (and the word of God has an error).

Kilgore Trout

CJD: I did read those threads you referred to above, so you don't have to tell me to go read them. A lot of what you say fits the points I was making above. You talk just like most apologists that I've seen, except you may use some different assumptions that fit your arguments.

For example you refer to the writer as SAINT Matthew and say you trust him to know the Hebrew scriptures etc. That is exactly what fundamentalist apologists assume. There is no way for us to know that Matthew was written by "Saint Matthew" or even if it was, we can't know if we "trust him to know scripture". These are more things that anyone can claim. So you are assuming things that an impartial observer would never assume if they wanted to judge if Jesus was the messiah.

YHWHtruth

There is a significant problem with Cal's reasoning on this matter. If "true" is A and "false" is B, then Cal's argument runs like this: Whatever is non-A is B. But that is not accurate in terms of our discussion. He does not allow for C, D, E, etc. He wants you to think that the only viable option for non-A ("true") is B ("false"). This is known as a false dichotomy, and the rest of Cal's argument suffers from it.


Cal in applying Isaiah 7:14 to Jesus the apostle Matthew wrote: “All this actually came about for that to be fulfilled which was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: ‘Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Immanuel,’ which means, when translated, ‘With Us Is God.’”—Matt. 1:22, 23.

True, Jesus was not called “Immanuel.” But that fact does not mean that he did not fulfill this scripture. It was meant to state a fact regarding his mission rather than to give him a literal name. This can be illustrated by another prophecy of Isaiah, found at chapter nine, verses six and seven: “For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness.”

There can be no doubt that this prophecy applies to Jesus Christ, the Son of God as well as of David. Yet nowhere do we read that any of Jesus’ apostles or disciples identified him by these names. Nevertheless, when upon earth he was the “Wonderful Counselor,” and will be such even more so in the coming system of things as he counsels all mankind as to how to gain everlasting life. From his creation onward the designation “Mighty God” was applicable to him; and since his resurrection, when he received all authority in heaven and on earth, and especially since his ascension into heaven, when he became the “reflection of [God’s] glory” and the “exact representation of his very being,” has that designation been most fitting for him. (Heb. 1:3; Matt. 28:18) Further, in that he will provide everlasting life to obedient humankind by means of his ransom sacrifice he very appropriately is named “Eternal Father.” And, since by means of his kingdom he will bring everlasting peace to humankind, as well as to all the universe, how fitting that he be called “Prince of Peace.”

So, too, with Isaiah 7:14, which tells that a “maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Immanuel.” That the emphasis is on the role Jesus will play is apparent from Matthew’s giving us also the meaning of Immanuel, namely, “With Us Is God.”

Most appropriate is it that Jesus Christ as the foremost representative of Jehovah God ever on earth has the title “With Us Is God.” And particularly is this so when we remember Jesus’ reply to Philip’s request: “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to Philip: “Have I been with you men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father also. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me?”—John 14:8-10.

Surely, in view of these facts we can see how fitting it was and is that in prophecy Jesus was identified not only as “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,” but also as “Immanuel,” meaning, “With Us Is God.” And all this, let it be noted, without his actually being called by these names when he was on earth.

Max