Ted Hoffman

We all have expectations whe we ask questions. At least David Matthews, his intransigence and closed-mindedness aside, could respond to the questions he was asked.

I also find this excercise futile.

Marduk

Kosh:
"Oh man, "In search of Eden" on at the same time. They're going into the Babylonian myths now..""

I saw those shows on Discover awhile back, both pretty good!

Steven Carr

For those of you interested in Mrs. Noah, rather than the Ark, she is profiled at

<a href="http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-mrsnoah.html" target="_blank">http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-mrsnoah.html</a>

This also has a nice picture pointing out that the sea was not calm, rendering pointless disussion on whether a wooden boat will break apart in a calm sea.

The author writes 'Our intellects are no doubt considerably dulled by the ravages of sin.' I believe this is known as the royal we.

And for those cynical atheists who think God drowned babies :- 'Nor did he put babies or children or adolescents through it; he timed the arrival of offspring to fit in with His sovereign plan.'

Mrs. Noah was an example to us all in her ability to cope with suffering. 'What spiritual strength would have been necessary to endure the hostility and ridicule. Nothing but sheer steel could have weathered the cries of those drowning.'

How many of us would have been emotionally affected by hearing the cries for help of one billion drowning people? But God gave her fortitude.

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Steven Carr ]</p>

HelenM

Because that's not what I do here

Helen

HelenM

Um...not really. It's the 'theological we' that comes from believing what he says applies to every single human being.

Helen

Pop_Quiz

Greetings, all! Newbie here with no particular area of expertise, so be gentle. Here's an email I sent to Amie before my registration was approved. As an FYI, creationists believe the Flood occurred in 2344 BCE and Creation in 4004 BCE (don't ask me why...it all doesn't add up by simply tracing back in the OT). I originally wanted to post a question concerning population and how 8 people in 2344 BCE could be responsible for our current population and still have enough to comprise some 1-2 million people in the Exodus and a genetically-feasible population to span the globe post-Babel.
I got onto a creationist's site (Alan Ask-he never responded to an email) and he seemed to agree with UN and US Census world pop figures of 300 million in Year 1...explain that graph! (Hey, figures for right around the Flood show somewhere in the area of 8^8=16.7 million...hmmm...a parabola from...heaven; but then again, the UN and USC are heretics and their figures don't apply) The net growth rates don't make sense so I wanted to see what the biology teacher had to say, in all sincerity, on some issues that , admittedly, have been raised before. Because I prefer the Scientific Method, I am always open to new ideas and their counterpoints.

...I wanted to throw some questions your way. Glad to see some good arguments put out concerning the Flood. I actually have the belief it didn’t happen as laid out in Creationist belief (are you a Creationist through and through?) because the timeframe for all of Life essentially starting over again4350+/- years ago would involve another miracle in of itself and there’s no mention of God giving Noah and crew an upper-hand in getting started. I just have a list of some random things that are probably old and worn-out by now but after going through Creationist websites, I get nothing but challenges thrown back, warped science that isn’t even proved, and anything unexplainable referred back to God. That’s not science, that’s religion; so, because you seem well-versed in facts (I do appreciate it), what are some of your thoughts on 12 of mine:

1) Since Noah had 7 helpers and DNA has shown Neanderthals are not related to Homo sapiens, and therefore “animal”, do you think Neanderthals and mammoths were used as helpers? Since it would have taken 81 years by modern (Victorian) boat-building practices (3-5 years w/ 100+ workers) to build an average timber boat, these draft animals could have been used. Related to that, why did no one build a boat that big or even close until centuries later? Why didn’t Noah land over New Jersey or Berlin after a year at sea? Are findings in Israel showing a Neanderthal-human-Neanderthal line of habitation in a cave posing any problems, other than a date going back over 30,000 years ago?
2) Since all things vile and “thorns and thistles” were put upon the world after Adam and Eve were kicked out, wouldn’t that mean they were there for Noah to take on the ark? Round worm, ringworm, scabies…any “appearance” post-flood is either a sign of evolution or further damning by God (wasn’t Noah and family “good”; why make their lives even more unbearable?) Wouldn’t the UV have been a killer upon disembarking? (Due to the condensation of the vapor layer—which would have blocked any signs of stars and the moon)
3) Concerning Adam and Eve and their sons…where did Cain get his wife? What was her name? If Creation is traced through the Bible, it seems there are a few (many) generations missing/overlooked. If that’s even the case, then, the chronology is wrong. Dates can’t be based on missing data; 4004 BCE is an arbitrary number.
4) Aren’t 8 people and, depending on whether you believe 7 clean/2 unclean animals, all a very shallow genetic pool? Don’t zoologists today freak when an endangered or isolated species (whether in zoos or wild) gets down to that number? They get concerned about in-breeding.
5) Since Noah would have had to carry on all pre-Flood oral tradition, what are the chances he and his family were even a part of it? Did someone actually spell out the previous 1500 years to him? It’s hard enough to go back several generations these days even with writings and modern genealogy techniques. To know all about the world for a few dozen generations, whether related or not, seems like the precursor to the WWW!
6) Concerning the Everest seashells, why is it other mountains and volcanoes do not have them? Just looking at the Himalayas, you can tell India is grinding into Asia. When Creationism was instituted, they weren’t privy to satellite photos and went with, I admit, a fairly reasonable hypothesis. Being in Colorado, there are formations outside Golden, in particular, that are the remains of Round 1 of the Rockies…the current ones are still rising; they have no shells on them….because they didn’t grow from the seabed. I would think if there were elephants, humans, T-rex, and redwood remains on top of Everest, that would seal the Flood as fact.
7) Which brings me to the Green River basin…the Flood could not have performed its own set of miracles. How is it some of these layers constitute anything from insect/fish/crustacean scat, to fish eyes and scales? It sounds like periods of reproduction groupings or mass die-offs. In Switzerland, layers of earth going back 9000 years show seasonal layering; i.e. autumn, winter, spring, summer, all evidenced by the presence of a particular season’s foliage and laid out in that order. And for the fossil record, what’s it called, hydrodynamics? Where the lighter objects sunk first and every single heavier organism seemed to float before sinking? Not a single advanced organism made it into the older layers? Hate to say it, but that’s just like believing every plant survived the Flood in brackish rain water for a year. I’ve actually over-watered ferns. Cacti would have hated that. Concerning dinosaurs as having lived and died before Eden as a way to keep them from the Flood scenario: “…and God unto them, be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth”, as if to say there had been previous life. The fossil record doesn’t say so and if anything, doesn’t that actually mean make one’s kind more plentiful from its current state?
8) This leads to other environment-specific organisms…fresh-water Amazon dolphins, catfish, brain parasites. Coral can’t live in deep water (all the earth covered by 15 cubits of water) but they’re here. One harbor-feasibility study done, I believe, in pre-WW2 days, showed one reef over 50,000 inches deep. Since in good years coral grow an inch/year, how is this possible? Bristlecones over 4000 years old…their seeds wouldn’t have survived a maelstrom so severe as to raise mountains and lay down thousands of cubic acres of topsoil in the Mississippi River delta…because they are in the Rockies and White Mountains, there should be shells next to them, if anything.
9) Migration…just imagining a ship some two miles up in the mountains (figure from various sites, both Creationist and Evolutionist) on a volcano that was probably active at the time (if other volcanoes were going off then Noah was lucky to have landed there if it wasn’t (and if it was even Ararat). How would the tree sloths have made it to South America? There’s no evidence of a Pangea being around then and a year certainly isn’t enough time for water to push around continents to their current position (animals hadn’t arrived yet). Has anyone done a topographical map of what the world would have looked like after the Flood? Since the waters were still draining, that means most of the world was still water. Noah didn’t wait until all the world was drained…otherwise why concern yourself with the dove. Migration would have had to wait until passageways opened up…that’s a lot of flora and fauna milling around.
10) What about non-Judaic peoples? If the Tower of Babel was attempted within 3 centuries (again, from other sites…I haven’t used the Bible to age it myself) after the Flood, just how many people were around to be a viable worldwide spread of humanity? How is it the cultures could migrate so quickly and set themselves up so rapidly—which says they arrived in the Americas and Australia with technology in place, which isn’t true. Why didn’t trade with all these people continue---money and rare raw materials speaks louder than differing linguistics. If the ark could be built, get trading! Those wayward tartan-wearing Scots found in western China would need to get to the British Isles, establish a culture, then venture into China, within 1000 years. Sounds doable, but then that means the poor Middle East stayed put and didn’t do a lot of advancing/wandering in all that time. What about the existing African cultures? Egypt was all-too familiar with points south (ours) before and after the Flood. How were racial traits such as skin color and eyelid structures formed? The Mongoloid races were adapted to living in a snow-blindness prone world and developed eyes as such. Being that the last ice age ended several thousand years ago (in an Evolutionist’s eyes) and the trait is no longer needed, why aren’t we all getting closer in appearance…world-wide? One argument could be peoples of a certain make-up went to their present locales…but how would they know? Makes more sense people staying in a locale “acclimated” themselves to their environment. 300+ societies’ tales of a flood doesn’t make for a world-wide catastrophe, especially since the time-frames vary…if oral tradition can mess that up, then what makes them believable as a tale of one event?
11) I know this is a worn-out argument, but I’m curious as to what you have to say on: carbon-dating, meteorites, speed of light, and over 9000 years of habitation at Jericho?
12) Is it mere coincidence that older societies have their own tales of floods and long-serving kings? 10 kings in Babylonian legend reigned 20,000 years and longer. Just seems to me the Hebrews borrowed that aspect of longevity. One of the things I find interesting about why the Old Testament writers, and the oral dictators they got their information from, assumed they were the first generations of Mankind (keeping with the Bible’s sexist bent)…going back to the fact writing aids in keeping the facts straighter than oral, why wouldn’t the first civilizations assume they were first? There was no long-term memory of anything else. Even exchanging stories within an office setting can change by the end of the day. I know storytellers were highly prized and esteemed then but they were still human. Embellishment is as old as the first story (how would we know either way?) Oral tradition going back 10,000 years in this country doesn’t sit well with me (as in the recent hoopla over Kennewick Man)...Amerindians would say 20,000 years of tradition if that were the date. I don’t know their particular traditions but I wonder if any involve their passage over the Bering Strait. If Babel spread them out, they should at least be able to go back to that time; someone’s incorrect.

I don’t want to come across as argumentative or drive an agenda home, but I’m curious as to how so many things point to an old earth and not a young one. I find this whole thing fascinating and don’t claim expertise in any area. You can either post this yourself or I can paste it in a post, but I’m curious as to what someone with some good, basic scientifically grounded facts has to say. I appreciate any time you have and look forward to correspondence.
{How's that for some butta?}

Amie

I have been going through some Noah's texts last night and I would appreciate to not get any more harrasing e-mails insulting me. I am trying to pull in different sources for some of these and I find that the insults are really not necessary. If I believe a flood occurred what is the problem? I am not clear why I would be getting the e-mails I am getting and I am not clear why it matters what sources I have been using or what I believe to be true or not. It is my perception that this occurred. I can use ONLY scripture if you would like. Perhaps a book on geology. We underwent a catastrophic flood! perhaps you can also go here. What I cant understand is how many DON'T believe in some sort of flood. I have read the debate for Morris, how can you say the guy is a loon? because he does not agree with you?
<a href="http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/library/noahsark.htm" target="_blank">http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/library/noahsark.htm</a>
to start it seems a good one. I apologize it was not until I read Hele's post that I was aware it was standard practice to list my sources. Now no more links. I hope that you can read the one I gave you, but let me get this back in first gear. Now!
Not only am I going to "prove" that this flood happened, but I am going to prove it by using science books. oh and yes I will let you know which books, however I also will use 3 of my theology texts. and, let me say I will do all of this by using only 6 texts all in all (I will have to collect them and I will tell you exactly which ones) and I will use the bible as well? fair enough?

Gooch's dad

Wow, Amie, I'm sorry, you're getting insulting emails. I'm a newcomer to this thread, but everything I've seen you post has been polite in the extreme.

Yes, I disagree completely about the Noah flood, and I think it is a presupposition on your part to assume that it is true based solely on the bible.

But that doesn't mean you can't have a civil discussion here. I encourage you to present your evidence, along with sources. But I also encourage you to be intellectually honest, and be prepared to accept the outcome if you are proven wrong.

Cheers,

-Kelly

Amie

now in reading the story of genesis we are aware of the flood through scripture as well as through the epic of gilgamesh. Some believe that the flood was an adaptation of Gilgamesh. Whos to say it is entirely possible. Wht I am going to do is show you that it is the flood of Noah from my perception. Now I have the bible here however I am inclined to toss it with this discussion since many dont believe in the story at all, however I may need to refer to it from time to time. Another book I will be using is basically my teachers manual for biology, to answer any of the biological questions I encounter. Now as we Christians know God has the power of omniscience, omnipresence and what not, so ultimately this means that since God is everywhere and all knowing that all things in this world are directly tied into God in some respect. If you are not familiar with the omnis, please do so now because I am going to get into those a bit later. Also please familiarize yourselves with the genesis story of Noah's flood since the most simple of questions are biblically based. Now heres the thing, you guys can give me any links that you want and I will read anything you have, however I am confident that I will not have to use any outside sources aside from my texts and when I refer to them I will include the book as well as page number. Also if you give me links, I can safely say that I can debunk most of these things the skeptic ones say. Now be patient with me, I am sick today and home from work.

HelenM

Amie I'm sorry you're sick today...

I look forward to what you have to say on this topic.

Helen