Ben C Smith

Paul says that the resurrection body is a spiritual body. That does not automatically mean that the body is made out of spirit, any more than his expression soulish body (often translated as natural body) means that our natural bodies are made out of soul; to the contrary, what Paul calls the soulish body is pretty clearly made out of flesh.

Likewise, Paul refers in 1 Corinthians 10.3-4 to spiritual food, spiritual drink, and a spiritual rock. In context, these are the manna and water the children of Israel partook of in the desert, and the rock whence the water flowed. Paul is not saying that manna, water, and this rock were made of spirit; he is saying that they were supernatural in some way. In 3.1 of that same epistle Paul talks about being spiritual men. He does not mean men made out of spirit; he means men motivated or energized by the spirit.

Think of it this way. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul is pretty clear that the soulish body is made of flesh and blood, but what does he say the spiritual body is made of? The answer is that he does not say. We are not told. But the expression itself does not mean that the body is made of spirit; that is not how the adjective works.

Ben.

Clivedurdle

Sorry Ben, there is a clear evolution of ideas and confused interpretations here. The gods in genesis were pretty fleshy! Jesus is another part god part man idea, your attempts to define souls and spirits are only apologistic ways of coping with this.

Cut to the chase - they had no idea what flesh is, they invented gods, they created a fictional world and then argued about the plot lines. John 21 is a very important text that actually describes a transformation of flesh into spirit - not sure if it is a material or spiritual one - the doctrine of the holy spirit being with believers is probably saying it is a fascinating co mingling.

(When was the concept of supernatural invented? Is it actually in the Bible? The gods are continually doing real things and acting!)

Chili

Now-now Ben, the spiritual food that the children of Israel had in the desert was like oats that had been thru the horse already because they ate and died nonetheless. Jesus said: "the man who feeds on [my] bread shall live forever."

Manna is not bread from heaven or it would not let them down. Manna is like bible passages that come to us second hand and therefore are not from heaven which is the exact distinction Paul made here.

A soulish body is flesh and blood indicates that flesh and blood are in conflict while in a spiritual body the flesh and blood are one. The wine that Jesus made was water converted into wine and that is how corruptible flesh is made incorruptible, and mortality is changed to immortality = knowledge frees.

The water here is the sea that Jesus walked on that yielded the bread of life for the multitude of sins that until now divided the flesh and blood. The sea that Jesus walked on is the soul that must be depleted for the conversion of mortality to immortality. The body is essentially the same except that the soul is no longer to create conflict as the corrupter of flesh.

Steven Carr

Yes, spirit was a substance, if ethereal.

Steven Carr

Paul says Jesus became a life-giving spirit.

How does the noun spirit work?

A metallic sound is not made of metal. Adjectives just don't work like that.

But if somebody becomes a metal, what are they made of?

dog-on

Thanks, Ben.

...but how about these usages?

11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.


here a slight digression...

"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

Is this how they knew about Christ?

anyway,

16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?

3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit.

hmmmm............

16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

(I hope that he has a different idea in mind for the meaning of the word 'unites', in that quotation!)

It seems that the meaning of the word spirit hasn't changed that much since this was written. Apart from playing around with semantics, I am still left with the impression that Paul's resurrection was originally understood as non-physical.

(I am also now much more certain that 1 Corinthians is a layered writing, but that's a different subject)...

Ben C Smith

Of metal.

But this does not work in 1 Corinthians 15, and Paul himself has left us the clues in this case as to how to read him. Read verse 45 again: Adam became a living soul; Christ became a lifegiving spirit. If Paul is not saying that Adam was made of soul, how can you force him to say that Christ was made of spirit? Connecting a few dots in this chapter, Paul seems to think that Adam was a living soul with a body made of flesh; he also seems to think that Christ is a lifegiving spirit with a body made of ___. (He does not say what spiritual bodies are made of.)

Ben.

Ben C Smith

The meaning of the word spirit is probably as you say. But we are not talking about the noun spirit; we are talking about the adjective spiritual.

Steven gave a great example. We know what metal is, but is a metallic sound made out of metal? No. To say that something is metallic is to characterize it in some way without necessarily implying that the exact characteristic you are describing is its composition.

Ben.

Ray Moscow

But again: 1 Corith 15 does not sound like the "resuscitation" (my term) sort of resurrection that is pictured in the gospels, after which Jesus ate and allowed people to touch him -- though there are some inconsistencies like him looking different (road to Emmaeus) and suddenly appearing in a closed room.

dog-on

Understood, except that:

The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Spirit is a noun here, unless they have changed grammer since I was in school...

The last Adam is what? A spirit.