Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dog-on · 09-06-2007, 06:59 AM

Do the Pauline epistles support the idea of a physical, bodily, resurrection from the dead, for believers?

Ben C Smith · 09-06-2007, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Do the Pauline epistles support the idea of a physical, bodily, resurrection from the dead, for believers?

A bodily resurrection, yes. 1 Corinthians 15.44:

A soulish body is sown, a spiritual body raised. If there is a soulish body, there is also a spiritual [one].

A fleshly resurrection, no. 1 Corinthians 15.50a:

Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

I take this to mean that the resurrection body is not, according to Paul, to be made out of flesh.

Ben.

Ray Moscow · 09-06-2007, 07:35 AM

The usual text is 1 Corith 15 (which some don't believe to actually be from Paul himself, but it's "Pauline"), but even this doesn't seem compatible with "resurrection" as depicted in the gospels. For example,

Quote:

1 Corith 15:50: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The usual earthly body is not resurrected, but rather replaced with a heavenly one.

Ray

Ray Moscow · 09-06-2007, 07:36 AM

Oops, Ben posted faster than I did.

dog-on · 09-06-2007, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Do the Pauline epistles support the idea of a physical, bodily, resurrection from the dead, for believers?

A bodily resurrection, yes. 1 Corinthians 15.44:

A soulish body is sown, a spiritual body raised. If there is a soulish body, there is also a spiritual [one].

A fleshly resurrection, no. 1 Corinthians 15.50a:

Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

I take this to mean that the resurrection body is not, according to Paul, to be made out of flesh.

Ben.

Yea, I got the same thing...

Specifically, it seems that Paul believes in the resurrection of the spirit (or spiritual body, which seems to be saying the same thing, ie. not material).

So if Paul seems to say that the resurrection is spiritual, what then would you say Paul's belief regarding Christ's resurrection would have to be, physical or spiritual?

Amaleq13 · 09-06-2007, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

So if Paul seems to say that the resurrection is spiritual, what then would you say Paul's belief regarding Christ's resurrection would have to be, physical or spiritual?

IMO, that is a false dichotomy within the context of Paul's stated beliefs. He seems to have considered the "spiritual body" obtained at resurrection to be also physical in some sense.

The true dichotomy Paul establishes is between "flesh and blood" and "spirit". He is quite clear in identifying the latter as appropriate for a resurrected individual and, to my knowledge, there appears to be no good reason to think he considered Jesus an exception.

dog-on · 09-06-2007, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

IMO, that is a false dichotomy within the context of Paul's stated beliefs. He seems to have considered the "spiritual body" obtained at resurrection to be also physical in some sense.

The true dichotomy Paul establishes is between "flesh and blood" and "spirit". He is quite clear in identifying the latter as appropriate for a resurrected individual and, to my knowledge, there appears to be no good reason to think he considered Jesus an exception.

I am unable to find where "physical in some sense" can be extracted from Paul. Can you provide the references?

Amaleq13 · 09-06-2007, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

I am unable to find where "physical in some sense" can be extracted from Paul. Can you provide the references?

It is more a question of noting that Paul offers no such distinction and that applying the modern conceptualization of "spirit" appears to be anachronistic for the time.

Paul describes two bodies but differentiates between them not on the basis of their corporeality but on their perfection. I think Carrier goes into detail about the subject in his part of The Empty Tomb (or via: amazon.co.uk). If I remember, I'll check for specifics when I get home.

John Kesler · 09-06-2007, 11:52 AM

An interesting text to compare with 1 Corinthians 15 is 1 Enoch 15, which elaborates on the story contained in Genesis 6:1-4 regarding angels who left heaven and cohabited with human women. It appears that Paul believed that at the resurrection, the flesh-and-blood, mortal body would be changed to a spiritual, immortal body, a reversal of what happened to the sinful angels whose immortal, spiritual bodies were transformed:

Quote:

1 Enoch 15:3-7:
{Addressing the Watchers}:Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children 4 of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons? And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die 5 and perish. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget 6 children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you were formerly 7 spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.

1 Corinthians 15:42-50, 54a:
42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven.
50 What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 54 When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality

The 1 Enoch passage should also bring to mind Jesus' words about the condition of the resurrected, found in Matthew 22:30: "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

Clivedurdle · 09-06-2007, 12:46 PM

Do we not also need to differentiate material spirits - the aer - and the different concept of immaterial spirits?

Genesis in discussing angels and humans knowing each other - the guests of Abraham in Sodom is also similar - is assuming material spirits.

At some point an idea of a supernatural spirit was invented - is the new testament a series of texts documenting this transition? Is Enoch an early example?

The contradiction between Matthew - no marriage - and Revelation - Bride of Christ - may be about this change of understanding.

http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewW...&tabview=image

09-06-2007, 06:59 AM	#1
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	Did Paul believe in a physical resurrection? Do the Pauline epistles support the idea of a physical, bodily, resurrection from the dead, for believers?

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09-06-2007, 07:36 AM	#4
Ray Moscow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 1,255	Oops, Ben posted faster than I did.

09-06-2007, 12:46 PM	#10
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Do we not also need to differentiate material spirits - the aer - and the different concept of immaterial spirits? Genesis in discussing angels and humans knowing each other - the guests of Abraham in Sodom is also similar - is assuming material spirits. At some point an idea of a supernatural spirit was invented - is the new testament a series of texts documenting this transition? Is Enoch an early example? The contradiction between Matthew - no marriage - and Revelation - Bride of Christ - may be about this change of understanding. http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewW...&tabview=image

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