Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 05-27-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

One of the most interesting of Bagnall’s examples reads ό δεδωκως πvεύμα (“the one who has given the Spirit”—namely Kyrios, the Lord Jesus). Bagnall claims that this is probably the earliest evidence of Christian graffiti ever discovered. What was the function of this graffito, inscribed in a public place? It does not seem to have been an advertisement to bring in outsiders, but rather for insiders (Christians), who knew the key clichés, phrases and code words to make sense of the graffito. To insiders it announced that there were Christians in the city with whom other Christians could socialize and worship.

The reason for the coded communication is obvious. It could be dangerous to be an early Christian in ancient Smyrna. Polycarp, a bishop in Smyrna in the first and second centuries, after surviving an attempt by the authorities to burn him at the stake, was stabbed to death.

Christianity was categorized as a superstitio in the Roman Empire before Constantine legalized it in the fourth century, and as such Christians were subject to persecution, prosecution and occasionally execution. The Christian graffiti in Izmir are significant because they confirm both the early presence of Christians in that city and their need to communicate in code.

from a lecture at the SBL session, Roger Bagnall’s "New Graffiti from Smyrna in the Context of Early Christianity."

Vampyroteuthis · 05-27-2009, 02:19 PM

Do I hear the galloping hoofbeats of Mountain Man approaching?

Doug Shaver · 05-28-2009, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Christianity was categorized as a superstitio in the Roman Empire before Constantine legalized it in the fourth century, and as such Christians were subject to persecution, prosecution and occasionally execution.

That is the conventional wisdom. I think the conventional wisdom is mistaken.

GakuseiDon · 05-28-2009, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Christianity was categorized as a superstitio in the Roman Empire before Constantine legalized it in the fourth century, and as such Christians were subject to persecution, prosecution and occasionally execution.

That is the conventional wisdom. I think the conventional wisdom is mistaken.

I didn't know that there was any controversy over that, though I know that there is a view that the persecution wasn't as great as it was claimed in greater years. But I thought that that was part of the conventional wisdom as well. What part of that quote is mistaken IYO?

Clivedurdle · 05-28-2009, 04:58 AM

Superstitions did not result in persecution - a superstitio was only a new cult compared with venerable religios.

And what resulted in prosecution was treachery like refusing to acknowledge the emperor in the prescibed way.

mountainman · 05-29-2009, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyroteuthis

Do I hear the galloping hoofbeats of Mountain Man approaching?

Dear Vamp,

The phrase "the highways were covered with galloping bishops" is from Ammianus Marcellinus. This sort of stuff is easily established. The bishops of the fourth century had places to go and people to see. The question here relates to the activities of an unknown grafitti artist in the suspected early christian bishoprick in or around the Agora of Smyrna.

From what I can tell this is just your usual garden variety "christian glasses" fiasco. Just like the Basilides inscription in Rome. With the Basilides inscription the epitaph reads the words "He Sleeps". This is all the people with christian glasses need to see clearly we are looking at a dead "christian". Bagnall's graffiti is no different.

The epitaph ό δεδωκως πvεύμα needs to be examined.
We are given the translation (“the one who has given the Spirit”)

What are we then presuming?
Is there any explicit mention of the Lord?
Are we dealing with a nomina sacra for Kyrios. (ie: KC over-barred?)
Is there any explicit mention of Jesus?
Are we dealing with a nomina sacra for Jesus. (ie: IH over-barred?)
Are we dealing with nomina sacra savvy graffiti artists in the Agora of Smyrna?
Are we wearling "christian glasses"?

What do we see when we remove them?

What was in the mind of the grffiti artist when he wrote:
(“the one who has given the Spirit”).

Is this a case of a second century Simon and Garfunkel
"the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls"?

I dont buy it as unambiguously christian.

Quote:

Bagnall claims that this is probably the earliest evidence of Christian graffiti ever discovered. What was the function of this graffito, inscribed in a public place? It does not seem to have been an advertisement to bring in outsiders, but rather for insiders (Christians), who knew the key clichés, phrases and code words to make sense of the graffito. To insiders it announced that there were Christians in the city with whom other Christians could socialize and worship.

Principles of Historical research need not be different
from criteria of common sense. And common sense teaches
us that outsiders must not tell insiders what they should
do. I shall therefore not discuss directly what biblical
scholars are doing. They are the insiders.

Quote:

The reason for the coded communication is obvious. It could be dangerous to be an early Christian in ancient Smyrna. Polycarp, a bishop in Smyrna in the first and second centuries, after surviving an attempt by the authorities to burn him at the stake, was stabbed to death.

Eusebius told me so. Amen.

Quote:

Christianity was categorized as a superstitio in the Roman Empire before Constantine legalized it in the fourth century, and as such Christians were subject to persecution, prosecution and occasionally execution.

For which we have no direct and unambiguous evidence.
Setting aside our friend, our guide and faithful companion Eusebius of course.

Quote:

The Christian graffiti in Izmir are significant because they confirm both the early presence of Christians in that city and their need to communicate in code.

Occam would not buy that explanation.
Was there a code book?
The ABC Code Book for Early Christians.

Code (1): Dont leave any footprints.
Code (2): Dont leave anything for the archaeologists
Code (3): Graffiti must be white on blue.
Code (4) to (77) was not preserved.

spin · 05-29-2009, 12:24 AM

Gallop, gallop, gallop, gallop.

PhilosopherJay · 05-29-2009, 07:17 AM

Hi Mountainman,

Good point about reading inscriptions through Christian Glasses. If this particular text was found on a wall covered with other Christian sayings like "Christ, you know it ain't easy" or "Who are you? What did you sacrifice?," we could presume a Christian connection. If just an isolated inscription, it could have any number of references and should not be used as evidence for anything.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyroteuthis

Do I hear the galloping hoofbeats of Mountain Man approaching?

Dear Vamp,

The phrase "the highways were covered with galloping bishops" is from Ammianus Marcellinus. This sort of stuff is easily established. The bishops of the fourth century had places to go and people to see. The question here relates to the activities of an unknown grafitti artist in the suspected early christian bishoprick in or around the Agora of Smyrna.

From what I can tell this is just your usual garden variety "christian glasses" fiasco. Just like the Basilides inscription in Rome. With the Basilides inscription the epitaph reads the words "He Sleeps". This is all the people with christian glasses need to see clearly we are looking at a dead "christian". Bagnall's graffiti is no different.

The epitaph ό δεδωκως πvεύμα needs to be examined.
We are given the translation (“the one who has given the Spirit”)

What are we then presuming?
Is there any explicit mention of the Lord?
Are we dealing with a nomina sacra for Kyrios. (ie: KC over-barred?)
Is there any explicit mention of Jesus?
Are we dealing with a nomina sacra for Jesus. (ie: IH over-barred?)
Are we dealing with nomina sacra savvy graffiti artists in the Agora of Smyrna?
Are we wearling "christian glasses"?

What do we see when we remove them?

What was in the mind of the grffiti artist when he wrote:
(“the one who has given the Spirit”).

Is this a case of a second century Simon and Garfunkel
"the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls"?

I dont buy it as unambiguously christian.

{snip}

Doug Shaver · 05-29-2009, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

I know that there is a view that the persecution wasn't as great as it was claimed in greater years. But I thought that that was part of the conventional wisdom as well. What part of that quote is mistaken IYO?

My apologies. I was painting with way too broad a brush. Please disregard my previous post.

mountainman · 05-29-2009, 05:01 PM

Thanks Philosopher Jay,

I agree that the additional presence of such explicit Christian sayings in the immediate vacinity of this graffiti might provide far more support to the conjecture that we are looking at Christian graffiti. One popular phrase, for example, attributed to Jesus in a number of early manuscripts is the phrase "Why are you asking me"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letter of Peter to Philip

"Then a great light appeared
so that the mountains shone
from the sight of him
who had appeared.
And a voice called out
to them saying,

"Listen to my words
that I may speak to you.
Why are you asking me?

It's key phrases like this which can
often turn the tide of Christian opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Mountainman,

Good point about reading inscriptions through Christian Glasses. If this particular text was found on a wall covered with other Christian sayings like "Christ, you know it ain't easy" or "Who are you? What did you sacrifice?," we could presume a Christian connection. If just an isolated inscription, it could have any number of references and should not be used as evidence for anything.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Dear Vamp,

The phrase "the highways were covered with galloping bishops" is from Ammianus Marcellinus. This sort of stuff is easily established. The bishops of the fourth century had places to go and people to see. The question here relates to the activities of an unknown grafitti artist in the suspected early christian bishoprick in or around the Agora of Smyrna.

From what I can tell this is just your usual garden variety "christian glasses" fiasco. Just like the Basilides inscription in Rome. With the Basilides inscription the epitaph reads the words "He Sleeps". This is all the people with christian glasses need to see clearly we are looking at a dead "christian". Bagnall's graffiti is no different.

The epitaph ό δεδωκως πvεύμα needs to be examined.
We are given the translation (“the one who has given the Spirit”)

What are we then presuming?
Is there any explicit mention of the Lord?
Are we dealing with a nomina sacra for Kyrios. (ie: KC over-barred?)
Is there any explicit mention of Jesus?
Are we dealing with a nomina sacra for Jesus. (ie: IH over-barred?)
Are we dealing with nomina sacra savvy graffiti artists in the Agora of Smyrna?
Are we wearling "christian glasses"?

What do we see when we remove them?

What was in the mind of the grffiti artist when he wrote:
(“the one who has given the Spirit”).

Is this a case of a second century Simon and Garfunkel
"the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls"?

I dont buy it as unambiguously christian.

{snip}

05-29-2009, 12:24 AM	#7
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Gallop, gallop, gallop, gallop. Gallop, gallop, gallop, gallop. Gallop, gallop, gallop, gallop.

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05-27-2009, 02:19 PM	#2
Vampyroteuthis Contributor Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 14,915	Do I hear the galloping hoofbeats of Mountain Man approaching?

05-28-2009, 04:58 AM	#5
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Superstitions did not result in persecution - a superstitio was only a new cult compared with venerable religios. And what resulted in prosecution was treachery like refusing to acknowledge the emperor in the prescibed way.

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