Transient

Interesting - where did Paul get the idea of speaking in tongues from?
Were there any precedents for this kind of thing?
Sounds like a funny thing just to make up.

aa5874

It is found in the book called Acts of the Apostles. The chronology is right there.

Jesus, the offspring of the Holy Ghost, floats away to heaven witnessed by the disciples and told them to wait for [b]the Holy Ghost.

And on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Ghost came and put some kind of fire on the apostles and they began to speak in tongues.

Acts of the Apostles is the only book with the Holy Ghost tongue-talking story, yet the writer called Paul wrote that he was a tongue-talker.



1Cor 14:18 -

The writer called Paul got his information from the scripture, the scripture of Acts of the Apostles and the authors of the Jesus stories, there are NO Holy Ghost tongue-talkers in the Jewish Scriptures.

delusional

[QUOTE=aa5874;5789106]I would say that he was referring to his experience on the road to Damascus.

Well Jesus is just a name, and Christ is just the Greek equivalent of Messiah.


The idea of a Messiah was in circulation before the book of Daniel was written. The first Christians were Jews who believed that the Messiah had come. Given that belief it was natural for them to look in the Old Testament for prophesies which seemed to specifically fortell the life of Jesus, and they found what they were looking for in passages such as Isaiah 53.


He didn't get "speaking in tongues" from anywhere; it is just a phenomenon the first Christians experienced. Whatever you make of it, it still goes on today.


Nobody disputes that Paul knew the other apostles, and would have learnt much about Jesus from them. Paul himself certainly doesn't try to hide the fact. Paul certainly didn't read the gospels, because they hadn't even been written when his epistles were composed in the 50's.

storytime

"There is no other Messiah in the Jewish scriptures. Paul's Jesus Christ is a fraud, too."

As a child attending Sunday school, I remember the teachers teaching out of the NT only. We were given NT without the Old attached. I still wonder if those teachers knew that they were teaching a lie, and why we were brainwashed with the NT first, and, as like you said, There is no Jesus god-man written about in the OT. That being recognized then says what? That Christians must first impose on the brain a portrait of Judaism that simply is not there?

Transient

hmm well I can speak in tongues as good as anyone else I have heard.
I was wondering where the idea came from tho - did the author of acts just make it up or is there some sort of precedent from other cultures for speaking in tongues?

delusional

[QUOTE=Transient;5789156]There are passages in the OT where ecstatic utterance seems to be implied. For example 1 Sam 10.5-6

Jayrok

Like much of his other ideas, from Isaiah:

Isaiah 28:11 -- Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people.

aa5874

You mean the fake conversion of Saul/Paul as found in Acts of the Apostles, where the letter writer was blinded by a special bright that only he and his fellow travellers saw. Maybe it was a lazer light or some kind of high intensity narrow-beam light.


No, not at all. Not just a name.

In the NT, the church writings and non-canonised writings, Jesus is a son of a God, born without sexual union, of the virgin Mary, transfigured, resurrected, ascended through the clouds with the power to forgive sin and created the world.

Well, show just show me where it is written in Jewish Scripture that the son of the God of the Jews, born without sexual union would be the Messiah as written in Daniel.

Just show me where the Messiah, the son of the God of the Jews would be crucified as a blasphemer, and would rise the third day.

How come the Jews called Simon bar Kokchba the Messiah one hundred years after the so called son of the God of the Jews, the offspring of the Holy Ghost?

The answer should be obvious. The Jesus Christ of the NT, the offspring of the Holy Ghost, has no history..

What goes on today? Read Acts of the Apostles and you will see that nothing as reported in Acts of the Apostles with the Holy Ghost tongue-talkers goes on today.

The apostles first of all had something like fire on their heads.

That does not go on today.

Secondly, the Holy Ghost tongue-talkers spoke fluently in many different languages according to Acts.

That does not go on today.

The Holy Ghost tongue-talkers of today just repeatedly make incoherent sounds.

You don't know what you are saying.

According to Eusebius in Church History, the writer called Paul was aware of the gospel of Luke. According to Eusebius, the writer Paul called the gospel of Luke "my gospel" and even words found only in gLuke are found in a letter with the name Paul.

And in a letter with the name Paul, the writer claimed Luke was with him. Some say that Luke was with a fake Paul. It has been deduced by scholars that more than one person used the name Paul to write letters.

aa5874

Where does it say the apostles will speak in strange tongues? And where does it talk about the gifts of the Holy Ghost?

Only in Acts of the Apostles, not at all in Isaiah.

Sheshbazzar

I must join in the noting that the original "gift of tongues" that the Apostles allegedly recieved on the Day of Pentecost, was not simply an ability to spew non-sense gibberish as is now done, but was the ability to communicate with understandable conversation that each listener was able to understand in his own native language. (Acts 2:4-11)

Paul wasn't there, and it is not noted when or where he recieved his claimed "gift of tongues", moreover it appears that this "gift" as it was latter employed soon proved to be quite useless, and even an interrupting nuisance.(1 Cor 14:2-28)

Years ago I was a member of a congregation where a visitor stood up and babbled away in gibberish, then another visitor stood up and "interpreted" the alleged "message", one which conveniently "settled" an ongoing power struggle on the side of that one whose "friends" were these "tongues speaking" visitors. :constern02:
And even though I had previously been a partisan of the prevailing party, I didn't buy it then, and I don't now. I was so offended by this conduct that I left permanently.

To a great degree this is when my skepticism and doubts about the claims of religion were finally awakened.

eta
I understand Isaiah 28:11 to be saying that foreigners will be speaking to the nation of Israel in their own native languages, not any miraculous thing at all, and it did happen that the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians did speak to Israel in their own languages, as Israel was demoted and had to learn the tongues of other nations.
A true, but likely "after the fact"-"prophecy".
And of course in the modern world, Israeli Jews do converse every day with foreign peoples speaking English, French, German, and many other languages; some miracle.