perpetua

The Bible teaches both the Absolute Sovereignty of God and the Responsibility of man. How the two coexist is a mystery known only to God. But if one is to take the Bible at face value one must come to terms with both being equally true. (for a non-believer, at least equally taught) God allows evil and is sovereign over evil, yet is not guilty of evil himself. He is righteous and just. Man's every heartbeat has been counted and the path of his steps formed before him, yet he will be justly called to account for his deeds on the day of judgment....only those deeds done in Faith (in Christ) will last....all others burned. Without faith it is impossible to please God...yet faith is a gift from God..not from ourselves...so know one can boast.

The Bible never says man has a "free will" it says man is held responsible for its deeds...that is different...and deeply troubling to many. I have a "free will" in the sense that I make decisions which line up with the desires of my heart. But, I am blissfully unaware of God's interference in the process...the Bible says God gives us the desires of our hearts...this does not mean he gives me everything I want...cars, world peace,,ect,, it means he's shaping what,exactly, I desire in order to accomplish his purpose in the world and If I desire (or do not desire) something its at His doing....In this way my "free will" could never override the will of God in my personal life or the world...therefore, at best it's limited..but most likely its an illusion

From a Calvinist perspective God's number one priority is His own Glory being displayed across the universe and He, in his sovereignty, uses all aspects of the seen and the unseen (good and evil) to accomplish this purpose.*

Deus Ex

Emphasis mine

I don't take the bible at face value. I don't consider the gospels to be literal history.

Paul received his gospel in a vision. He never met Jesus. As far as I am concerned, Paul's epistles have the same Divine Authority as a Ray Comfort banana video.

TheRealityOfMan

Perpetua - What would happen if you replaced the word *God* with the word *necessity*?

TheRealityOfMan

There is no reason to believe that St.Paul thought his commentaries on scripture should be canonised alongside them in a future church bible. At least the RCC is more consistent on this aspect by using extra-bible sources such as St.Augustine as their divine writ. At the time of writing, St.Paul was also an extra-bible source.

Centuries later John Calvin was an extra-bible source that Calvinists rely on. However Calvinists ironically draw a cosmic distinction between Paul's commentaries and Calvin's commentaries in theory, although in practice they, by definition, effectively consider Calvin to offer a divine truth in relation to scripture.

During the time when Calvinist churches were spreading through France, Northern Europe and the British Isles, Calvin offered a very useful sign to show evidence of reprobate nature - a sign of a reprobate is that he will reject Calvinist ideas!

Stephen T-B

"... Calvinists believe in free will, we just make a further distinction that free will is rooted in our nature. Just as God is incapable of doing evil because of His nature, and He is free to do as He pleases. So too the unregenerate is incapable of doing good because of his nature, yet he is still free to do as he pleases...he simply pleases sin."(withrop) exemplifies the double-speak at the heart of Calvinism, and if the Calvinists interpret the Bible correctly, then it exemplifies the double-speak at the heart of Christianity.
God writes the program which makes the robot head for the cliff top. When the robot falls off it, god is not held to be responsible: the robot is because it willingly followed the program written for it.

This is too much for some - many - Christians. Calvinists, however, appear to glory in the idea of a wrathful, vengeful god, for ever allowing human souls to suffer eternal torment for the crime of having been made flesh. I don't know what it is in their psyche that such a doctrine appeals to, but perhaps they here have similarities with all extremists. They are, if you like, to Christianity what the Bolsheviks were to the Russian Revolution, or the Jacobins to the French. They're the people who see the logic of a doctrine, and pursue it right to its bitter, bloody end.

Squirm as they might to avoid the horrid conclusion the Calvinists come to, all Christians believe human nature is depraved and that without Christ's sacrifice, all deserve to spend eternity "seperated" from god. The more humane/liberal minded of them don't speak of "hell" as being a place of eternal torment - but quite clearly they think it to be sufficiently unpleasant as to be well worth trying to avoid.

Deus Ex

No church has done more to fill the world with gloom than the Presbyterian. Its creed is frightful, hideous, and hellish. The Presbyterian god is the monster of monsters. He is an eternal executioner, jailer and turnkey. He will enjoy forever the shrieks of the lost, -- the wails of the damned. Hell is the festival of the Presbyterian god. -Robert Ingersoll (1880)

TheRealityOfMan

And who said Presbyterians were miserable folks?

Deus Ex

I am not so sure. Paul seemed quite boastful in his letters.

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! -Galatians 1:8

Paul is a self proclaimed apostle. There is evidence of friction between him and the Jerusalem Church. The First Jewish-Roman war effectively marginalized Jewish Christianity with the sack of Jerusalem. This left the door open for Pauline Christianity to become the 'orthodox' Christian doctrine.