Flagg

This is a curious minority with whom to discuss Christianity, since they seem to accept the horrific nature of their own views as actually being good. Since this particular individual and I are discussing his theology's merits in and of itself, I am wondering if there are any non-Christian responses to Calvinism based solely on the merits of the system of Calvinism in and of itself (above the usual arguments against Christianity as such).

Long ago I used to present one Hell of a straw-man argument, before realizing it was a straw-man argument and abandoning it: I used to funnel all possible Biblical interpretations into hardline Calvinism then beat it an easy new one with polemics. While this works for Catholics and Arminians who hold a disgust for the notion of the Calvinistic God, Calvinists naturally take it with a "so what?" Now, however, I'm convinced that Calvinism is in fact true if the Bible is taken on its face, without extra-Biblical interpretation or assumption. I can't find anything in the Bible which runs contradictory to it. Thoughts?

Deus Ex

Read through this thread.
http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthr...ight=calvinism

The Calvinist version of god is simply malevolent.

figuer

Why would anyone take the Bible on its face? And even if, there are so many contradictions Calvinist interpretation is still questionable.

Chadley Krakka

I don't understand this. One of the reasons I became an Atheist, I'm ashamed to say, is due to issues of Predestination, Calvinism, and the nature of God, all inevitably linked.

Like what Betrand Russel said, it is difficult for me to point out exactly where the fallacy lies within Calvinism.

figuer

In Calvinism humans are complete automatons without any responsibility for their actions. They are simply sentient entities who endure god's will. Humans are condemned to hell or heaven without any basis on personal merit. Such a system from the human viewpoint lacks any justice, and the deity is evidently both good and evil. If Calvinist accepted that their god is unjust and evil/good, or at least morally neutral, there would be no contradiction. The contradiction arises when Calvinist insist in denying the obvious, and proclaim their god's goodness and fairness.

winthrop

There seems to be little understanding of Calvinist beliefs on this thread.

First, God does ordain both those who are elect and those who are reprobate.

Second, simply because God ordains what happens doesn't mean that individuals are not responsible for their own actions.

Third, Calvinists believe in free will, we just make a further distinction that free will is rooted in our nature. Just as God is incapable of doing evil because of His nature, and He is free to do as He pleases. So too the unregenerate is incapable of doing good because of his nature, yet he is still free to do as he pleases...he simply pleases sin.

Chadley Krakka

Your stand is that sinning is solely the decision of an individual. So does that mean Christians who are elected by God to be so are also solely responsible for their decision?

thedistillers

The Bible can support any Christian faith; it is a very big and vague book.

Forget about the Bible, Calvinism is only the logical conclusion once you posit a God. It's really simple, if there is a God, then God's sovereignty must follow. Otherwise the God is not really a God.

Of course some calvinists will try to sell you that you are somewhat still "free", but they're obviously trying to sell you a chimera. They probably don't fully understand the concept of God's sovereignty.

The wise will simply ignore all this nonsense, until substantive evidence for a God is presented.

Toto

There are certain assumptions that follow from the claim that God is all powerful. If there is an all powerful god, then anything that happens in the world is his will and there is no point in going against it. Anything bad is your own fault, or predestined. But trying to fit free will into this may cause your head to explode.

You may be interested in The Causes of Anti-semitism: A Critique of the Bible (or via: amazon.co.uk), which does not have a lot to do with Calvinism, but does discuss this idea of the consequences of assuming that the Bible is true.

If you want to discuss Calvinism per se, this thread can be moved to GRD.

figuer

On the contrary, it is understood better than Calvinist do.

The above are contradictory statements. If god ordains then there is no personal responsibility, since the person is simply a puppet.

The above is absurd. The "unregenerate's" nature is created by the will of god, thus there is no free will on the firsts part. He doesn't do as he pleases, he does as god pleases.