Clivedurdle

New Living Translation (©2007)
There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Baptism is about rebirth. Being born again asexual makes a lot of sense, as does then the church being the bride of Christ.

aa5874

When one examines Genesis 1.26-28 it is likely that Jesus believers did abide by the words of God in Genesis, "Be fruitful and multiply"

One of the simplest ways to increase the magnitude of the Jesus cult would have been to have extremely large families.

And it is not quite helpful that no extant writings of Origen have survived where he admitted he was castrated.

stephan huller

Hi Clive

I fully agree. There is a tendency among some in this forum to attack our sources because they don't make "sense.". I think this idea of men coming to baptism with the fresh blood stains of self-mutilation explains the entire context of early Christianity and why it was vehemently opposed by the third century establishment

stephan huller

Origen never says he was castrated but then there are probably a number of homosexuals and a number of doctors and lawyers at this site who never acknowledge their identities either. Origen does seem to tacitly approve a literal interpretation of Matthew 19:12 in his commentary on Matthew. His castration is also widely acknowledged by his supporters which is key.

I am on the road so I can't use the quote feature properly but the first part of your post:

When one examines Genesis 1.26-28 it is likely that Jesus believers did abide by the words of God in Genesis, "Be fruitful and multiply"One of the simplest ways to increase the magnitude of the Jesus cult would have been to have extremely large families.

Is plainly disproved by Celsus. I will cite his testimony in full.

Tertullian says much the same thing. "Our blood is seed" meaning when Christians die as martyrs they multiply through the conversion of new members

Solo

Let me just understand this 'always find' shtik. Are you saying, charles, that you never had any doubt about the strange bunching of improbabilities around the discovery of the manuscript ? None ? All other issues apart, are you not bothered at all by the fact such an incredibly important document that would radically change whole bunch of things about our understanding of early Christianity, should have been lost ? Not at all ? You of course realize that a simple chemical test of the ink of the scribbling in the Voss Ignatius book would immediately put to rest any speculation as to when it was put down. Ok, just wanted to make sure you did not fall for some hard-luck story.

Ok, but you do agree that what Jesus did in 10:21 of the canonical Mark is done by the young man in the Secret Mark fragment, don't you ?

Could you show me any parallel to this kind of role reversal between Jesus and any of his interlocutors in any of the mystery scripts ? I would be much obliged to you.

And you would not need to believe that 'a priori', would you ? :huh:


Jiri

charles

I have read your book but I don't call you addressing this topic. Just "why was Christian ritual castration vehemently opposed by the third century establishment?"

I can't see why this would be opposed by anyone.

darstec

You realize of course that several of the people on that list were most probably figments of the authors imagination don't you? Besides somebody claiming that someone was a "eunuch" hundreds of years later, doesn't make it so. Where is the evidence contemporary with the lifetime of the person that substantiates that? How many different people attest to it?

You do realize that calling a persons manhood into question is something an enemy is apt to do? How do you distinguish between the holy eunuch and the chaste love of the knights in the middle ages or even in the early 20th century ideal that good girls were virgins before marriage? Let me tell you that I have heard many a woman in her 90s say premarital sex was not rare, that what was rare was the anyone discussing it in public.

charles

But there must have been HUNDREDS of documents which referred to things which would 'radically change' our understanding of Christianity. The Gospel of the Hebrews, the writings of Valentinus, Basilides, Marcion. What about them?

I have read up on some of the controversy surrounding the text. None of what has been put forward raises my suspicions that Morton Smith was engaged in some massive conspiracy to forge a text that really doesn't prove his main thesis that Jesus was a magician.

If he had discovered a text which helped make the case for his own thesis I might believe that it was a forgery. But according to my understanding it doesn't. I am not an expert on anything of course but that's what I think.

aa5874

You are playing games.

You MUST first produce EVIDENCE.

Where did Celsus claim that Jesus believers were castrated?

Celsus DID not disprove any such thing that Jesus believers were likely to adhere to Genesis 1.26-28 which states be "fruitful and multiply'.


This is Origen on the castration of mythical Greek gods in "Against Celsus 4.48.

charles

I agree but the reason why I expressed such surprise in my post is that these aren't enemies, they are the Church Fathers themselves. It is surprising because I didn't know this before.